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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

11 Apr 2017 21:55

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
[url=<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2094400#p2094400</span>]backdoor[/url] wrote:
[url=<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2089617#p2089617</span>]berend[/url] wrote:
[url=<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2089487#p2089487</span>]backdoor[/url] wrote:
[url=<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2089336#p2089336</span>]JamesCun[/url] wrote:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.


I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling.


I'd argue that you are the one incapable of realising the effect it has: it -- at best -- has no effect.



Leaving aside the increased tangential effect of the force you are applying, your rear wheel is getting its power with the same smoothness as an out of phase tandem.
<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tandem2.html</span>

I've already shown the effect of changing the manner in which power is applied around the pedal stroke makes no difference to the sustainable speed of a rider on a bicycle.

IOW in order to go faster, ceteris paribus, one needs to increase the power. So far you have provided zero data to demonstrate this happens when one changes the way they pedal from what they normally do to your mythical technique.

So, data please.
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.


I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling.


I'd argue that you are the one incapable of realising the effect it has: it -- at best -- has no effect.



Leaving aside the increased tangential effect of the force you are applying, your rear wheel is getting its power with the same smoothness as an out of phase tandem.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tandem2.html

I've already shown the effect of changing the manner in which power is applied around the pedal stroke makes no difference to the sustainable speed of a rider on a bicycle.

IOW in order to go faster, ceteris paribus, one needs to increase the power. So far you have provided zero data to demonstrate this happens when one changes the way they pedal from what they normally do to your mythical technique.



How about changing the manner in which force is applied to the pedal around the pedal stroke, (e g) changing a maximal semi tangential force to a fully tangential force.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

11 Apr 2017 22:08

backdoor wrote: How about changing the manner in which force is applied to the pedal around the pedal stroke, (e g) changing a maximal semi tangential force to a fully tangential force.

Sure, go for it - and when you do then supply some data to show us how much sustainable power output has improved, or not improved, or got worse.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

11 Apr 2017 22:21

backdoor wrote:How about changing the manner in which force is applied to the pedal around the pedal stroke, (e g) changing a maximal semi tangential force to a fully tangential force.

----
It all depends on how much 'physical cost' there is in applying the force.
The 'physical cost' including things such as -
- What muscles are involved and the efficiency of those muscles moving in the required manner.
- The endurance of those muscles for longterm use.
- The amount of O2 and 'fuel' required for the muscle and whether that amount can be delivered.
- The amount of power or resistance that occurs in the non-power-production portions of the crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
JayKosta
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Re: Re:

11 Apr 2017 23:56

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:How about changing the manner in which force is applied to the pedal around the pedal stroke, (e g) changing a maximal semi tangential force to a fully tangential force.

----
It all depends on how much 'physical cost' there is in applying the force.
The 'physical cost' including things such as -
- What muscles are involved and the efficiency of those muscles moving in the required manner.
- The endurance of those muscles for longterm use.
- The amount of O2 and 'fuel' required for the muscle and whether that amount can be delivered.
- The amount of power or resistance that occurs in the non-power-production portions of the crank rotation.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


The muscles involved in generating this additional maximal fully tangential force are the largest muscles in the body (the glutes) which are used in a way natural pedallers don't know how to use them, the quads,lower legs and ankles are used to direct this force tangentially to the cranks. There is minimal resistance during the recovery 180 deg'
backdoor
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12 Apr 2017 01:53

You sound very convinced of this, you should easily be able to provide data that this actually happens and when people use your technique it actually has an impact on performance.

Until then it's just bullcrap.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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Re: Re:

12 Apr 2017 03:20

backdoor wrote:The muscles involved in generating this additional maximal fully tangential force are the largest muscles in the body (the glutes) which are used in a way natural pedallers don't know how to use them, the quads,lower legs and ankles are used to direct this force tangentially to the cranks. There is minimal resistance during the recovery 180 deg'

Data please.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

12 Apr 2017 12:11

[quote="backdoor

The muscles involved in generating this additional maximal fully tangential force are the largest muscles in the body (the glutes) which are used in a way natural pedallers don't know how to use them, the quads,lower legs and ankles are used to direct this force tangentially to the cranks. There is minimal resistance during the recovery 180 deg'[/quote]

Noel,

How in the world could one use the glutes to produce maximal torque at the the 12 o'clock position? The glutes extend the leg to make it more inline with the torso. What you're suggesting is utter nonsense.

Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
sciguy
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Re: Re:

12 Apr 2017 13:24

sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
The muscles involved in generating this additional maximal fully tangential force are the largest muscles in the body (the glutes) which are used in a way natural pedallers don't know how to use them, the quads,lower legs and ankles are used to direct this force tangentially to the cranks. There is minimal resistance during the recovery 180 deg'


Noel,

How in the world could one use the glutes to produce maximal torque at the the 12 o'clock position? The glutes extend the leg to make it more inline with the torso. What you're suggesting is utter nonsense.

Hugh


Was going to say the same thing. The glutes push the upper leg down and back at 12, impossible to be 'fully tangental'. Maybe you need to drop the seat really low and slam it back to 60deg so you get that tug of war position...that way you can push from behind the crank instead of overtop of the crank???
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 11:36

JamesCun wrote:
sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
The muscles involved in generating this additional maximal fully tangential force are the largest muscles in the body (the glutes) which are used in a way natural pedallers don't know how to use them, the quads,lower legs and ankles are used to direct this force tangentially to the cranks. There is minimal resistance during the recovery 180 deg'


Noel,

How in the world could one use the glutes to produce maximal torque at the the 12 o'clock position? The glutes extend the leg to make it more inline with the torso. What you're suggesting is utter nonsense.

Hugh


Was going to say the same thing. The glutes push the upper leg down and back at 12, impossible to be 'fully tangental'. Maybe you need to drop the seat really low and slam it back to 60deg so you get that tug of war position...that way you can push from behind the crank instead of overtop of the crank???


All the experts and engineers searching for equipment that could eliminate the dead spot sector would agree with you, but the fact is there is more than one way the glutes can be used. The solution can be found by adapting a different glutes' technique from another powerful force generating sport for use in this sector and beyond. This has already been explained.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 12:28

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
The muscles involved in generating this additional maximal fully tangential force are the largest muscles in the body (the glutes) which are used in a way natural pedallers don't know how to use them, the quads,lower legs and ankles are used to direct this force tangentially to the cranks. There is minimal resistance during the recovery 180 deg'


Noel,

How in the world could one use the glutes to produce maximal torque at the the 12 o'clock position? The glutes extend the leg to make it more inline with the torso. What you're suggesting is utter nonsense.

Hugh


Was going to say the same thing. The glutes push the upper leg down and back at 12, impossible to be 'fully tangental'. Maybe you need to drop the seat really low and slam it back to 60deg so you get that tug of war position...that way you can push from behind the crank instead of overtop of the crank???


All the experts and engineers searching for equipment that could eliminate the dead spot sector would agree with you, but the fact is there is more than one way the glutes can be used. The solution can be found by adapting a different glutes' technique from another powerful force generating sport for use in this sector and beyond. This has already been explained.


Muscle act across a joint based on their origin/insertion...the glutes extend the leg. Please explain what other action they do that would involve the foot moving forward at 12.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 15:26

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
The muscles involved in generating this additional maximal fully tangential force are the largest muscles in the body (the glutes) which are used in a way natural pedallers don't know how to use them, the quads,lower legs and ankles are used to direct this force tangentially to the cranks. There is minimal resistance during the recovery 180 deg'


Noel,

How in the world could one use the glutes to produce maximal torque at the the 12 o'clock position? The glutes extend the leg to make it more inline with the torso. What you're suggesting is utter nonsense.

Hugh


Was going to say the same thing. The glutes push the upper leg down and back at 12, impossible to be 'fully tangental'. Maybe you need to drop the seat really low and slam it back to 60deg so you get that tug of war position...that way you can push from behind the crank instead of overtop of the crank???


All the experts and engineers searching for equipment that could eliminate the dead spot sector would agree with you, but the fact is there is more than one way the glutes can be used. The solution can be found by adapting a different glutes' technique from another powerful force generating sport for use in this sector and beyond. This has already been explained.


Muscle act across a joint based on their origin/insertion...the glutes extend the leg. Please explain what other action they do that would involve the foot moving forward at 12.


There are two ways they can extend the leg.
backdoor
Junior Member
 
Posts: 285
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 15:34

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
sciguy wrote:
Noel,

How in the world could one use the glutes to produce maximal torque at the the 12 o'clock position? The glutes extend the leg to make it more inline with the torso. What you're suggesting is utter nonsense.

Hugh


Was going to say the same thing. The glutes push the upper leg down and back at 12, impossible to be 'fully tangental'. Maybe you need to drop the seat really low and slam it back to 60deg so you get that tug of war position...that way you can push from behind the crank instead of overtop of the crank???


All the experts and engineers searching for equipment that could eliminate the dead spot sector would agree with you, but the fact is there is more than one way the glutes can be used. The solution can be found by adapting a different glutes' technique from another powerful force generating sport for use in this sector and beyond. This has already been explained.


Muscle act across a joint based on their origin/insertion...the glutes extend the leg. Please explain what other action they do that would involve the foot moving forward at 12.


There are two ways they can extend the leg.


Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 21:11

JamesCun wrote:[quote="

Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'



Were you in this thread from its beginning ?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 21:23

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:[quote="

Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'



Were you in this thread from its beginning ?


Please feel free to post the link to any post/s where you actually explained how one could use their glutes to produce maximum tangential force at the 12 o'clock position. I'm not sure if you don't know which muscles you're referring to or what the word tangential means or perhaps both.

Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
sciguy
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Posts: 438
Joined: 13 May 2011 12:12
Location: Upstate NY

Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 22:40

sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:[quote="

Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'



Were you in this thread from its beginning ?


Please feel free to post the link to any post/s where you actually explained how one could use their glutes to produce maximum tangential force at the 12 o'clock position. I'm not sure if you don't know which muscles you're referring to or what the word tangential means or perhaps both.

Hugh



No need for me to post a link. A tangential pedaling force is a force applied at a right angle to the crank, which means you will get 100% torque return from that force. You supplied the link as part of my earlier explanation as to how maximal tangential force can be applied at 12 o'c. It's a simple technique that's done in almost the same way as ' Indoor Tug o' War' competitors apply their maximal forward force from shoe to floor mat and is most effective when done in the seated racing drops position.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 23:03

backdoor wrote:
sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:[quote="

Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'



Were you in this thread from its beginning ?


Please feel free to post the link to any post/s where you actually explained how one could use their glutes to produce maximum tangential force at the 12 o'clock position. I'm not sure if you don't know which muscles you're referring to or what the word tangential means or perhaps both.

Hugh



No need for me to post a link. A tangential pedaling force is a force applied at a right angle to the crank, which means you will get 100% torque return from that force. You supplied the link as part of my earlier explanation as to how maximal tangential force can be applied at 12 o'c. It's a simple technique that's done in almost the same way as ' Indoor Tug o' War' competitors apply their maximal forward force from shoe to floor mat and is most effective when done in the seated racing drops position.


Does this look the least bit like how you look on the drops???????????????????

Image
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
sciguy
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Location: Upstate NY

14 Apr 2017 00:26

Just post some data Noel.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 00:44

sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:[quote="

Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'



Were you in this thread from its beginning ?


Please feel free to post the link to any post/s where you actually explained how one could use their glutes to produce maximum tangential force at the 12 o'clock position. I'm not sure if you don't know which muscles you're referring to or what the word tangential means or perhaps both.

Hugh



No need for me to post a link. A tangential pedaling force is a force applied at a right angle to the crank, which means you will get 100% torque return from that force. You supplied the link as part of my earlier explanation as to how maximal tangential force can be applied at 12 o'c. It's a simple technique that's done in almost the same way as ' Indoor Tug o' War' competitors apply their maximal forward force from shoe to floor mat and is most effective when done in the seated racing drops position.


Does this look the least bit like how you look on the drops???????????????????

Image


All makes sense now...Noel is riding a recumbent and his 12 is everyone else's 3...totally clear now.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 08:31

JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'





That lying back position makes it more difficult for their opponents to pull them forward. It's how their leg muscles are being used to generate the leg force that makes the all important difference, unlike rowers or outdoor T o'W men whose leg muscle action is almost similar to that of natural pedallers. To apply maximal torque to the crank at 12 and 1 you need only a fraction of the force this technique is capable of generating and unlike these T o'W men, a TT cyclist is applying his force to a fast moving target.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 09:38

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'





That lying back position makes it more difficult for their opponents to pull them forward. It's how their leg muscles are being used to generate the leg force that makes the all important difference, unlike rowers or outdoor T o'W men whose leg muscle action is almost similar to that of natural pedallers. To apply maximal torque to the crank at 12 and 1 you need only a fraction of the force this technique is capable of generating and unlike these T o'W men, a TT cyclist is applying his force to a fast moving target.


https://www.google.ie/#q=indoor+tug+o'war+video
backdoor
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