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The pedaling technique thread

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01 Oct 2016 09:01

Focusing attention on circular pedaling reduces movement economy in cycling

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1469029216300826
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

01 Oct 2016 09:59

CoachFergie wrote:Focusing attention on circular pedaling reduces movement economy in cycling

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1469029216300826



" Abstract

Previous research has shown that focus of attention affects movement economy in endurance tasks. "

Can the same be said for rowing, and if not why not ?
backdoor
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01 Oct 2016 11:35

Hamish,
the article you mentioned ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1469029216300826 ) looks to be the same as PHITBOY did earlier.

I don't find it surprising that it showed a decrease in efficiency when they were tested using a different technique than they had trained for. Maybe it was due to the need for mental concentration about the new technique, or perhaps their muscles and coordination were not working efficiently because the technique was new to them.

If you make an adjustment to something such as seat height, handle bar location, crank length, etc., how much training have you seen as being necessary to determine if there is an improvement? Are your riders willing to make changes that don't show an 'immediate improvement'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re:

02 Oct 2016 20:54

JayKosta wrote:Hamish,
the article you mentioned ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1469029216300826 ) looks to be the same as PHITBOY did earlier.

I don't find it surprising that it showed a decrease in efficiency when they were tested using a different technique than they had trained for. Maybe it was due to the need for mental concentration about the new technique, or perhaps their muscles and coordination were not working efficiently because the technique was new to them.

If you make an adjustment to something such as seat height, handle bar location, crank length, etc., how much training have you seen as being necessary to determine if there is an improvement? Are your riders willing to make changes that don't show an 'immediate improvement'?

Jay Kosta


Endwell NY USA


Even if a rider trained for years perfecting the circular style, it would still not be as effective as mashing because you are interfering with the natural interaction between brain and muscles when generating and applying a force, by forcing the brain to divert more than half its attention from the most powerful to the weakest muscles, and it is more efficient to let the down leg muscles push the rising pedal from 9+ o'c to TDC than having the weakest muscles do it, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

02 Oct 2016 23:14

backdoor wrote:...
and it is more efficient to let the down leg muscles push the rising pedal from 9+ o'c to TDC than having the weakest muscles do it, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that.

-----------
Are you suggesting that the amount of muscle effort for 'unweighting' on the upstroke should be stopped at 9+ o'c ?

And if that is what you mean, then I think it would take considerable mental concentration to make that happen. Especially if the rider was using active muscle action in the 5 to 9 o'c sector.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re: Re:

03 Oct 2016 00:19

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
and it is more efficient to let the down leg muscles push the rising pedal from 9+ o'c to TDC than having the weakest muscles do it, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that.

-----------
Are you suggesting that the amount of muscle effort for 'unweighting' on the upstroke should be stopped at 9+ o'c ?

And if that is what you mean, then I think it would take considerable mental concentration to make that happen. Especially if the rider was using active muscle action in the 5 to 9 o'c sector.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


That's what works best for me when using the mashing style, the unweighting I do accelerates the foot and leg weight upwards and the powerful downstroke muscles take over from after 9 o'c. Frank Day also said that most difficult sector for the PC'er was from after 9 to TDC. It is not possible to use non counterweighted single leg pedalling in that sector when using Anquetil's method, it would have to be counterweighted, but then that involves applying maximal forward force at 11 o'c instead of trying to drag the pedal up and forward to TDC as is done when using the circular style. Circular pedalling can be useful, it helps when perfecting the mashing style.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

03 Oct 2016 04:12

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
and it is more efficient to let the down leg muscles push the rising pedal from 9+ o'c to TDC than having the weakest muscles do it, counterweighted single leg pedalling confirmed that.

-----------
Are you suggesting that the amount of muscle effort for 'unweighting' on the upstroke should be stopped at 9+ o'c ?

And if that is what you mean, then I think it would take considerable mental concentration to make that happen. Especially if the rider was using active muscle action in the 5 to 9 o'c sector.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


That's what works best for me when using the mashing style, the unweighting I do accelerates the foot and leg weight upwards and the powerful downstroke muscles take over from after 9 o'c. Frank Day also said that most difficult sector for the PC'er was from after 9 to TDC. It is not possible to use non counterweighted single leg pedalling in that sector when using Anquetil's method, it would have to be counterweighted, but then that involves applying maximal forward force at 11 o'c instead of trying to drag the pedal up and forward to TDC as is done when using the circular style. Circular pedalling can be useful, it helps when perfecting the mashing style.


Frank Day is not a credible source.
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03 Oct 2016 11:04

And stop being insulting to Anquetil. He won because he would have had the right combination of a high VO2max, utilization of his VO2max (threshold) and high efficiency. Any pedalling nonsense is just guessing on your behalf. Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency. Present data or just keep making us laugh at your stupid assertions.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

03 Oct 2016 17:27

CoachFergie wrote:And stop being insulting to Anquetil. He won because he would have had the right combination of a high VO2max, utilization of his VO2max (threshold) and high efficiency. Any pedalling nonsense is just guessing on your behalf. Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency. Present data or just keep making us laugh at your stupid assertions.



Concentrating on the wrong type of pedalling leads to a drop in performance and efficiency.
backdoor
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Re:

03 Oct 2016 17:43

CoachFergie wrote:And stop being insulting to Anquetil.


" You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him "
backdoor
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Re: Re:

04 Oct 2016 07:29

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:And stop being insulting to Anquetil.


" You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him "


That's not for pedalling technique.

Almost all training is better done alone. Interval training is certainly better done alone, whether the intervals are 60 seconds or 60 minutes.

And are you quoting someone? Who are you quoting, and why are you quoting someone else's opinion as proof of your opinion?
berend
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04 Oct 2016 10:40

Golly, how sad that you have to make up quotes about your delusions. What a sad life you live!
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

04 Oct 2016 11:32

berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:And stop being insulting to Anquetil.


" You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him "


That's not for pedalling technique.

Almost all training is better done alone. Interval training is certainly better done alone, whether the intervals are 60 seconds or 60 minutes.

And are you quoting someone? Who are you quoting, and why are you quoting someone else's opinion as proof of your opinion?


All his interval training was done while using a Derny. I am quoting from B Hinault's book. Split second timing was a vital part of his TT technique because unlike all other pedalling styles it had no 60 deg. idling sector. That cannot be perfected when cycling with other riders.
backdoor
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Re:

06 Oct 2016 14:38

[quote="CoachFergie Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency. [/quote]


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2015.1127987?src=recsys&journalCode=rjsp20
backdoor
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Re: Re:

06 Oct 2016 18:25

Note that in that study, the authors don't report efficiency / metabolic cost. Imagine this scenario: "Okay Pro Cyclist, we are going to measure your pedaling biomechanics. We think that Pros like you will pull up more than lower level riders. So just pedal they way you always pedal. Okay we will collect data now." So the pros did pull up more during data collection. Do they always pedal that way? We don't know. Was it more efficient? We don't know.
In fact one would certainly expect that the authors would have wanted to know about efficiency. Maybe they measured it but chose not to report it because it didn't fit their narrative.
We DO know that anyone can pull up and that these cyclists did pull up during the data collection. That's it.


backdoor wrote:[quote="CoachFergie Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency.



http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2015.1127987?src=recsys&journalCode=rjsp20[/quote]
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Re: Re:

06 Oct 2016 19:20

PhitBoy wrote:Note that in that study, the authors don't report efficiency / metabolic cost. Imagine this scenario: "Okay Pro Cyclist, we are going to measure your pedaling biomechanics. We think that Pros like you will pull up more than lower level riders. So just pedal they way you always pedal. Okay we will collect data now." So the pros did pull up more during data collection. Do they always pedal that way? We don't know. Was it more efficient? We don't know.
In fact one would certainly expect that the authors would have wanted to know about efficiency. Maybe they measured it but chose not to report it because it didn't fit their narrative.
We DO know that anyone can pull up and that these cyclists did pull up during the data collection. That's it.


backdoor wrote:[quote="CoachFergie Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency.



It appears to me that those doing pedalling studies don't know the difference between circular pedalling, pulling up or unweighting , or if they do, they make no mention of it.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

12 Oct 2016 19:36

backdoor wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:Note that in that study, the authors don't report efficiency / metabolic cost. Imagine this scenario: "Okay Pro Cyclist, we are going to measure your pedaling biomechanics. We think that Pros like you will pull up more than lower level riders. So just pedal they way you always pedal. Okay we will collect data now." So the pros did pull up more during data collection. Do they always pedal that way? We don't know. Was it more efficient? We don't know.
In fact one would certainly expect that the authors would have wanted to know about efficiency. Maybe they measured it but chose not to report it because it didn't fit their narrative.
We DO know that anyone can pull up and that these cyclists did pull up during the data collection. That's it.


backdoor wrote:[quote="CoachFergie Real scientists have shown that concentrating on pedalling leads to a drop in efficiency.



It appears to me that those doing pedalling studies don't know the difference between circular pedalling, pulling up or unweighting , or if they do, they make no mention of it.


http://www.over40cyclist.com/correct-pedalling-technique-part-2/
backdoor
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25 Oct 2016 00:22

Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

31 Oct 2016 21:47

backdoor
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31 Oct 2016 23:01

Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.
Hamish Ferguson
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