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The pedaling technique thread

Moderator: Tonton

01 Nov 2016 03:16

No idea if the full text provides any actual performance impact data. The abstract isn't particularly helpful:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2016.1215505?journalCode=rjsp20
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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01 Nov 2016 13:31

From the abstract, it seems to only demonstrate that non-sysmetrical pedalling technique can be made more sysmetrical with focused training.
It would be interesting to know how overall power and endurance were affected, and also for the control group who did a similar amount of training but w/o intent of changing technique.

Jay Kosta
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Re:

01 Nov 2016 15:09

CoachFergie wrote:Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.


Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

02 Nov 2016 01:29

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.


Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.

maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks
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Re: Re:

02 Nov 2016 10:22

veganrob wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.


Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.

maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks


And any real evidence, beyond your imagination, that he did in fact pedal any differently to anyone else.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

02 Nov 2016 23:12

veganrob wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.


Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.

maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.
backdoor
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02 Nov 2016 23:32

Interesting, it would be nice if you would have this method actually tested by riders in a controlled experiment for proof. Thank you.
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Re: Re:

03 Nov 2016 02:34

backdoor wrote:
veganrob wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.


Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.

maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.


That is incredible that you are able to perform that analysis so accurately based on a simple youtube video. To think that the 'experts' send thousands of dollars on high tech equipment to test the same things and somehow don't find as useful a solution as you have. You should really find a way to validate your technical assessment and revolutionize bike racing for everyone!!
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

03 Nov 2016 07:54

backdoor wrote:
veganrob wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.


Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.

maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.


Pathetic.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

03 Nov 2016 13:47

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
veganrob wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.


Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.

maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.


Pathetic.



" If any one rider became associated with high gears, it was Anquetil. He made high gears look good. Unlike the others, he stayed in them all the time. Unlike everyone else, he could turn them with a silky smoothness that only the showers of sweat that he shed showed wasn't effortless. "

Now you know how he powered and why he preferred the higher gears, you don't get enough time to use this extra maximal muscle power when using the lower gears.
backdoor
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03 Nov 2016 15:02

Even IF his technique was different, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is generally 'better' - only that he was able to use it successfully. There might be many other reasons for his success (as Hamish has often mentioned).
I don't know of any information that suggests he wouldn't have been just as successful using a more traditional technique. Perhaps he just 'liked the feel' of pushing large gears, and trained himself to do so.

Jay Kosta
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Re:

03 Nov 2016 18:35

JayKosta wrote:Even IF his technique was different, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is generally 'better' - only that he was able to use it successfully. There might be many other reasons for his success (as Hamish has often mentioned).
I don't know of any information that suggests he wouldn't have been just as successful using a more traditional technique. Perhaps he just 'liked the feel' of pushing large gears, and trained himself to do so.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


It is only better or invincible in flat not too technical T'T's or anywhere uninterrupted constant high gear power output can be used. Because it needs a longer wind up time, it is not suitable for sprinting, mashing is best for this. There is nothing to prevent any rider from perfecting all three pedalling techniques except lack of knowledge.
backdoor
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03 Nov 2016 21:56

So you keep saying but without supporting data your comments are just foolish speculation. The smart money is on a high VO2max, high fractional utilisation of VO2max and good efficiency. Proven contributors of performance in elite endurance athletes.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

04 Nov 2016 00:56

veganrob wrote:Interesting, it would be nice if you would have this method actually tested by riders in a controlled experiment for proof. Thank you.

For many years (we are talking more than a decade here) we've been asking Noel to do this. It's not hard, a training intervention either improves performance and power output or it doesn't. But Noel refuses to even do this one simple thing, and there's no excuse given the ubiquity of power meters now days.

Such a simple task would at least demonstrate whether improved power from such "technique" intervention is at least possible (or not), and if it does then we can start to nail down removal of bias in the data, e.g. through use of controls, better experimental method, number of test subjects, more specific equipment for analysis of pedalling etc.

He's even been offered free use of labs that specialise in precisely this sort of pedalling analysis but to this day Noel refuses to put his speculative ideas to the test, even at the most basic of levels.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

04 Nov 2016 13:53

backdoor wrote:...
It is only better or invincible in flat not too technical T'T's or anywhere uninterrupted constant high gear power output can be used. Because it needs a longer wind up time, it is not suitable for sprinting, mashing is best for this. There is nothing to prevent any rider from perfecting all three pedalling techniques except lack of knowledge.

----------------------------
My guess is that most cyclists do (or at least try to) use a specialized technique for riding situations (e.g. TTs) similar to the above.
How much (and 'if') their individual technique helps improve performance is one question.
Another question is if there is a particular 'single technique' that would be best for the majority of cyclists in those situations.

Jay Kosta
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Re: Re:

04 Nov 2016 17:27

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
It is only better or invincible in flat not too technical T'T's or anywhere uninterrupted constant high gear power output can be used. Because it needs a longer wind up time, it is not suitable for sprinting, mashing is best for this. There is nothing to prevent any rider from perfecting all three pedalling techniques except lack of knowledge.

----------------------------
My guess is that most cyclists do (or at least try to) use a specialized technique for riding situations (e.g. TTs) similar to the above.
How much (and 'if') their individual technique helps improve performance is one question.
Another question is if there is a particular 'single technique' that would be best for the majority of cyclists in those situations.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Your guess?

When there are coaches and sport scientists here who work with Olympians, World Tour Riders, World Champions and World Record Holders. As someone who can tick the first three boxes let me assure you that the only thing a rider may do different in a specific situation is vary cadence due to conditions and the use of specialist bikes between road, MTB, track and other events.

Noel is delusional. Not the first, certainly the least important person, to suggest such a pedal style, but none have provided a shred of evidence to support it.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

04 Nov 2016 21:45

I think what often gets lost or confused by some members of this forum is that we are talking (I think) about endurance power. Endurance power must be fueled aerobically. More power requires more oxygen so endurance power is limited by aerobic capacity. With respect to pedaling technique, there is a prevailing notion in cycling culture that typical pedaling is inefficient. Consequently, improving pedaling technique to make it more efficient might improve endurance power. This notion might seem to be supported by data showing negative torque or power during the leg flexion part of the cycle. However, that negative power is due to the weight of the limb segments and not to muscular action (technique). Typical pedaling produces essentially no negative muscular power. Consequently, here is simply nothing to fix, because typical pedaling is not broken.
In fact, every well done study has reported that changing from preferred/typical pedaling technique makes the cyclist less rather than more efficient.
Could we just put this topic to rest? That will require the will to resist "feeding the trolls" but I'm sure it could be done.

CoachFergie wrote:the only thing a rider may do different in a specific situation is vary cadence due to conditions and the use of specialist bikes between road, MTB, track and other events.
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Re: Re:

04 Nov 2016 22:54

PhitBoy wrote:I think what often gets lost or confused by some members of this forum is that we are talking (I think) about endurance power. Endurance power must be fueled aerobically. More power requires more oxygen so endurance power is Consequently, here is simply nothing to fix, because typical pedaling is not broken.
In fact, every well done study has reported that changing from preferred/typical pedaling technique makes the cyclist less rather than more efficient.
Could we just put this topic to rest? That will require the will to resist "feeding the trolls" but I'm sure it could be done.

CoachFergie wrote:the only thing a rider may do different in a specific situation is vary cadence due to conditions and the use of specialist bikes between road, MTB, track and other events.



All those studies were a waste of time because all those changes were nothing more than a weaker variation of the same basic natural mashing style where maximal torque application is restricted to the 2-4 o'c sector, e.g. circular, powercrank and ankling. That should have been obvious from the fact that when real power was required, riders using these changes reverted back to their mashing style,
backdoor
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Re: Re:

04 Nov 2016 23:13

[quote="PhitBoy"

More power requires more oxygen. [/quote]

Not if you are getting a much better torque return from the main force that is being applied than what you get from natural pedalling.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

04 Nov 2016 23:19

CoachFergie wrote:...
Your guess?
...

------------------
Yes, precisely because I don't have the type of experience or training that you mentioned.

In my very limited experience doing TTs, I DID find myself concentrating much more on my pedal strokes trying to make them powerful and efficient - but I don't know if what I was actually doing made any difference in technique, power, or endurance. This was many years ago, prior to power meters or even accurate speedometers.

From the anecdotes that I've read in the cycling press, it seems that most riders do try very hard when TT'ing to find that 'sweet spot' of highest speed and sufficient endurance for the event. And that seems to be verified by the use of power meters as a pacing tool and motivator for many riders.

Jay Kosta
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