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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 12:06

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'





That lying back position makes it more difficult for their opponents to pull them forward. It's how their leg muscles are being used to generate the leg force that makes the all important difference, unlike rowers or outdoor T o'W men whose leg muscle action is almost similar to that of natural pedallers. To apply maximal torque to the crank at 12 and 1 you need only a fraction of the force this technique is capable of generating and unlike these T o'W men, a TT cyclist is applying his force to a fast moving target.


Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 12:25

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'





That lying back position makes it more difficult for their opponents to pull them forward. It's how their leg muscles are being used to generate the leg force that makes the all important difference, unlike rowers or outdoor T o'W men whose leg muscle action is almost similar to that of natural pedallers. To apply maximal torque to the crank at 12 and 1 you need only a fraction of the force this technique is capable of generating and unlike these T o'W men, a TT cyclist is applying his force to a fast moving target.


Please explain how anything to do with Tug of War has to do with this picture. I can see massive activation of the quads in this position would provide a mostly tangential application of force but for the life of me not the glutes.

Image
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 12:39

backdoor wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'





That lying back position makes it more difficult for their opponents to pull them forward. It's how their leg muscles are being used to generate the leg force that makes the all important difference, unlike rowers or outdoor T o'W men whose leg muscle action is almost similar to that of natural pedallers. To apply maximal torque to the crank at 12 and 1 you need only a fraction of the force this technique is capable of generating and unlike these T o'W men, a TT cyclist is applying his force to a fast moving target.


https://www.google.ie/#q=indoor+tug+o'war+video

We're using a ToW video to explain your cycling technique? Really? Why don't you show a video you took to explain it along with some power numbers. That shouldn't be hard to do.
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 12:57

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'





That lying back position makes it more difficult for their opponents to pull them forward. It's how their leg muscles are being used to generate the leg force that makes the all important difference, unlike rowers or outdoor T o'W men whose leg muscle action is almost similar to that of natural pedallers. To apply maximal torque to the crank at 12 and 1 you need only a fraction of the force this technique is capable of generating and unlike these T o'W men, a TT cyclist is applying his force to a fast moving target.


Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?


Your whole leg especially your lower leg is involved in directing and applying that forward force to the pedal but the main power is coming from the glutes. For that reason it would not be possible for Alex to use this technique. In natural pedalling your lower leg muscles are almost idle when applying your main force. Not forgetting the extra pedalling time you are making available, by extending your range of maximal power application, spreading the workload over more muscles and increasing tangential effect of the force, you greatly reduce stress on all muscles and get a more effective and more sustainable TT technique. It would make more sense if the experts concentrated their research on muscle use instead of equipment, for over 125 years they have been at it and not one improvement in pedalling after all that work. Maybe Alex could explain why he believes it would not be a more effective and more sustainable technique.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 13:04

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'





That lying back position makes it more difficult for their opponents to pull them forward. It's how their leg muscles are being used to generate the leg force that makes the all important difference, unlike rowers or outdoor T o'W men whose leg muscle action is almost similar to that of natural pedallers. To apply maximal torque to the crank at 12 and 1 you need only a fraction of the force this technique is capable of generating and unlike these T o'W men, a TT cyclist is applying his force to a fast moving target.


Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?


Your whole leg especially your lower leg is involved in directing and applying that forward force to the pedal but the main power is coming from the glutes. For that reason it would not be possible for Alex to use this technique. In natural pedalling your lower leg muscles are almost idle when applying your main force. Not forgetting the extra pedalling time you are making available, by extending your range of maximal power application, spreading the workload over more muscles and increasing tangential effect of the force, you greatly reduce stress on all muscles and get a more effective and more sustainable TT technique. It would make more sense if the experts concentrated their research on muscle use instead of equipment, for over 125 years they have been at it and not one improvement in pedalling after all that work. Maybe Alex could explain why he believes it would not be a more effective and more sustainable technique.


You again wrote nothing comprehensible in relation to using the glutes for forward motion of the foot at 12. Please try again.

FYI...when the hip angle is significantly different in the drops position vs ToW, that massively changes the muscle activation and force available. The glutes are certainly engaged as the upper leg moves down through the pedal stroke, but not to the level of 'fully tangential' force at 12.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 13:16

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'


Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?


With this technique while using a seated position, from about 11 o'c the maximal force from the glutes can be directed over TDC instead of the downward direction that is only possible with natural pedaling.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 13:19

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'


Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?


With this technique while using a seated position, from about 11 o'c the maximal force from the glutes can be directed over TDC instead of the downward direction that is only possible with natural pedaling.


How? In a seated position, the only action of the glutes is to move the leg down. In the picture above, the leg is horizontal, the glutes firing at 11/12 will move the leg down towards vertical. That isn't debatable, it is just a fact of how levers work. So, that means any forward force is coming from kicking the lower leg forward, using the quads and small muscle in the lower legs.
JamesCun
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14 Apr 2017 14:40

Please explain what you meam by 'maximal / maximum' when talking about tangental force.
Do you mean that it's the same as the maximum that can be achieved at ANY sector of crank rotation?
Or, do you mean the maximum that you think can be achieved at EACH individual sector?
Having a 'common understanding' of how this terminolgy is being used is critical to this discussion.

About the glutes and ToW position - it looks like they are are employed in an attempt to pull the torso into alignment with the upper legs. By doing that with the upper legs horizontal, a strong pulling force is exerted on the rope thru the shoulders, arms and hands.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
JayKosta
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Re:

14 Apr 2017 15:43

JayKosta wrote:Please explain what you meam by 'maximal / maximum' when talking about tangental force.
Do you mean that it's the same as the maximum that can be achieved at ANY sector of crank rotation?
Or, do you mean the maximum that you think can be achieved at EACH individual sector?
Having a 'common understanding' of how this terminolgy is being used is critical to this discussion.

About the glutes and ToW position - it looks like they are are employed in an attempt to pull the torso into alignment with the upper legs. By doing that with the upper legs horizontal, a strong pulling force is exerted on the rope thru the shoulders, arms and hands.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


What's critical to this discussion is that Noel is delusional and speaks in totally random musings that ignore basic mechanics.
JamesCun
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Re:

14 Apr 2017 16:34

JayKosta wrote:Please explain what you mean by 'maximal / maximum' when talking about tangental force.


Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA



I mean the force/torque that can be applied by natural pedallers around 3 o'c.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 16:44

sciguy wrote:
Please explain how anything to do with Tug of War has to do with this picture. I can see massive activation of the quads in this position would provide a mostly tangential application of force but for the life of me not the glutes.

Image


Lance's agile, toes down pedaling style may be visually reminiscent of 5 time Tour De France Champion Jacques Anquetil. Cyclingnews discussed Lance Armstrong with Jean-Yves Donor. Mr. Donor covers cycling for Paris daily Le Figaro and is head of the International Association of Cycling Journalists. We asked Donor if the comparison of Lance with Anquetil is appropriate.

"Well, not really," said Donor. "Anquetil was a elegant rider who was really a time trial specialist in his day. His riding style was so smooth he looked like he was just sailing along. Anquetil was very powerful in his rear end, and used this to drive his pedaling, while not moving his upper body."
backdoor
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 20:05

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'


Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?


With this technique while using a seated position, from about 11 o'c the maximal force from the glutes can be directed over TDC instead of the downward direction that is only possible with natural pedaling.


How? In a seated position, the only action of the glutes is to move the leg down. In the picture above, the leg is horizontal, the glutes firing at 11/12 will move the leg down towards vertical. That isn't debatable, it is just a fact of how levers work. So, that means any forward force is coming from kicking the lower leg forward, using the quads and small muscle in the lower legs.


There is more than one way the glutes can be used when pedalling, you know of only one. I am talking about how combinations of different muscles can work, not how levers work.That kicking action was recommended by G. Obree, but it's no better than that useless circular pedalling action around TDC which is partly responsible for reducing power in your downstroke by delaying the start.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 20:50

backdoor wrote:It would make more sense if the experts concentrated their research on muscle use instead of equipment, for over 125 years they have been at it and not one improvement in pedalling after all that work. Maybe Alex could explain why he believes it would not be a more effective and more sustainable technique.

That's pretty insulting to researchers that have actually studied this issue in detail. And their conclusions? Yep, get a good bike fit and pedal naturally, and do lots of it.

Noel, just provide some data. Stop avoiding it. It's a simple request with a simple action for you to perform.
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 21:32

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?


With this technique while using a seated position, from about 11 o'c the maximal force from the glutes can be directed over TDC instead of the downward direction that is only possible with natural pedaling.


How? In a seated position, the only action of the glutes is to move the leg down. In the picture above, the leg is horizontal, the glutes firing at 11/12 will move the leg down towards vertical. That isn't debatable, it is just a fact of how levers work. So, that means any forward force is coming from kicking the lower leg forward, using the quads and small muscle in the lower legs.


There is more than one way the glutes can be used when pedalling, you know of only one. I am talking about how combinations of different muscles can work, not how levers work.That kicking action was recommended by G. Obree, but it's no better than that useless circular pedalling action around TDC which is partly responsible for reducing power in your downstroke by delaying the start.


Muscles can only pull...they only act to move a lever. The only way to push the foot forward at 12 is with a kicking motion, not the glutes (which can only push the leg down).

Again, please explain what action or combination of actions results in forward motion of the foot at 12 resulting in maximal torque.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 21:33

backdoor wrote:
sciguy wrote:
Please explain how anything to do with Tug of War has to do with this picture. I can see massive activation of the quads in this position would provide a mostly tangential application of force but for the life of me not the glutes.

Image


Lance's agile, toes down pedaling style may be visually reminiscent of 5 time Tour De France Champion Jacques Anquetil. Cyclingnews discussed Lance Armstrong with Jean-Yves Donor. Mr. Donor covers cycling for Paris daily Le Figaro and is head of the International Association of Cycling Journalists. We asked Donor if the comparison of Lance with Anquetil is appropriate.

"Well, not really," said Donor. "Anquetil was a elegant rider who was really a time trial specialist in his day. His riding style was so smooth he looked like he was just sailing along. Anquetil was very powerful in his rear end, and used this to drive his pedaling, while not moving his upper body."


This is useless garbage and says nothing about the questions asked. Try an actual response to a question instead of avoiding what should be simple explanations.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

15 Apr 2017 13:30

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'


Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?


With this technique while using a seated position, from about 11 o'c the maximal force from the glutes can be directed over TDC instead of the downward direction that is only possible with natural pedaling.


Noel,

If the left leg's glutes were fired maximally when it's in the position shown in the picture, the force would be directed in the same direction as my yellow arrow which would act to try to spin the cranks backwards not propel them forward.

Image
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
sciguy
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Re: Re:

16 Apr 2017 15:27

sciguy wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Please share how the foot moves forward at 12,1?? Extend, in terms of the hip, means moving the leg inline with the torso...that is not going to result in the foot moving forward...as required by your claim of 'fully tangential'


Nothing you wrote explains anything related to cycling or your claim of moving the foot forward with the glutes at 12. Try again?


With this technique while using a seated position, from about 11 o'c the maximal force from the glutes can be directed over TDC instead of the downward direction that is only possible with natural pedaling.


Noel,

If the left leg's glutes were fired maximally when it's in the position shown in the picture, the force would be directed in the same direction as my yellow arrow which would act to try to spin the cranks backwards not propel them forward.

Image



True, but that's the natural technique where the power generation of your most effective muscles ends at your knee and this restricts you to only a downward force Using the other technique (indoor T o'W) you are using a combination of power generating muscles from glutes to ball of foot where their objective is similar to that of the hydraulic system of the JCB as it drives that front bucket forward and down. And that was how Anquetil drove that smooth constant force from his rear end to the cranks.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

16 Apr 2017 16:05

backdoor wrote:True, but that's the natural technique where the power generation of your most effective muscles ends at your knee and this restricts you to only a downward force Using the other technique (indoor T o'W) you are using a combination of power generating muscles from glutes to ball of foot where their objective is similar to that of the hydraulic system of the JCB as it drives that front bucket forward and down. And that was how Anquetil drove that smooth constant force from his rear end to the cranks.

So at 11 you contract your glutes, that pushes the crank backwards. At the same time you are kicking your foot forward to counteract the glutes pushing back. Sounds like a horrendous waste of energy.

What you're describing already happens in 'natural pedalling'...from 1ish not 11. Most just understand that it can only contribute to the start of force generating and leads the way for the quads to take over as the pedals hit 3ish.

You can't change basic physical laws to suit your warped view of an ancient rider on YouTube.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

16 Apr 2017 16:17

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:True, but that's the natural technique where the power generation of your most effective muscles ends at your knee and this restricts you to only a downward force Using the other technique (indoor T o'W) you are using a combination of power generating muscles from glutes to ball of foot where their objective is similar to that of the hydraulic system of the JCB as it drives that front bucket forward and down. And that was how Anquetil drove that smooth constant force from his rear end to the cranks.

So at 11 you contract your glutes, that pushes the crank backwards. At the same time you are kicking your foot forward to counteract the glutes pushing back. Sounds like a horrendous waste of energy.

What you're describing already happens in 'natural pedalling'...from 1ish not 11. Most just understand that it can only contribute to the start of force generating and leads the way for the quads to take over as the pedals hit 3ish.

You can't change basic physical laws to suit your warped view of an ancient rider on YouTube.


How many times do I have to say it, there is more than one way the glutes can be used.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

16 Apr 2017 16:30

JamesCun wrote:

At the same time you are kicking your foot forward to counteract the glutes pushing back.


Your entire leg is working as a unit, no independent actions like kicking forward from the knee.
backdoor
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