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The pedaling technique thread

Moderator: Tonton

15 Aug 2017 01:11

People pedal differently at different power outputs relative to their ability and experience. Nooooooooooooo!
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

15 Aug 2017 14:30

CoachFergie wrote:People pedal differently at different power outputs relative to their ability and experience. Nooooooooooooo!



http://fitwerx.com/why-power-based-bike-fitting-doesnt-work/

The objectives given to your brain control your pedalling muscle firing patterns, not bike fitting or equipment change. Powercrank research proved that with riders reverting back to their old natural style when PC's were removed.
Cyclists should pedal differently depending on the type of pedal power they require, sustainable semicircular for TT's and mashing for sprinting.
backdoor
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15 Aug 2017 19:53

Ha ha, you still don't get it. No wonder no one takes you seriously!

We should start a go fund me to buy you a clue. Or at least a seat at a first year neurophysiology class!
Hamish Ferguson
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15 Aug 2017 23:21

The take home from Fernandez-Pena paper where the athletes went from normal cranks to gimmick cranks and adapted to the gimmick cranks and then went back to normal cranks and adapted is that WE adapt.

Any decent coach or biomechanist will tell you that trying to fight this is futile.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

23 Aug 2017 21:08

CoachFergie wrote:The take home from Fernandez-Pena paper where the athletes went from normal cranks to gimmick cranks and adapted to the gimmick cranks and then went back to normal cranks and adapted is that WE adapt.

Any decent coach or biomechanist will tell you that trying to fight this is futile.


Using PC's your ineffective weakest muscles are doing what they are forced to do in an awkward and sometimes painful way, on your return to standard cranks you can forget about these weakest muscles and let your brain/muscles return to its natural and easier way of pedalling.
Why does peak torque for many riders occur after 3 o'c ?
backdoor
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23 Aug 2017 23:53

Because they are responding to the constraints of the cranks, bikes, gearing, and where they are riding. This is pretty simple stuff Noel.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

24 Aug 2017 13:24

CoachFergie wrote:Because they are responding to the constraints of the cranks, bikes, gearing, and where they are riding. This is pretty simple stuff Noel.

-----------------------------------
I don't think it is 'pretty simple stuff' because in a person-to-person comparison it is likely that there are many details that all contribute to precisely where max torque is produced.
Items such as: joint angles, limb length, limb weight, individual muscle strength, etc.
Max torque at 3 o'clock only looks likely if the force on the pedal is assumed to always be vertical.

Jay Kosta
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24 Aug 2017 19:25

It is pretty simple stuff.

Let me know of any National High Performance programme or Professional team that spend any time coaching pedalling technique!!!
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

25 Aug 2017 09:56

CoachFergie wrote:It is pretty simple stuff.

Let me know of any National High Performance programme or Professional team that spend any time coaching pedalling technique!!!


Not as simple as you believe it to be. There are a few causes and also solutions, one of which is https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/30413/what-physiological-processes-within-a-muscle-cause-the-latent-period-in-a-musclev
backdoor
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Re:

25 Aug 2017 13:47

CoachFergie wrote:...
Let me know of any National High Performance programme or Professional team that spend any time coaching pedalling technique!!!

--------------------------------------------------
Yes the actual pedalling done by an individual can seem simple to them - they just
'do whatever it takes'.
But that doesn't mean the details of what is involved in the action are simple. Nor does it means that everyone does it equally well.

Regarding coaching of pedalling technique - do you coach or assist your riders about things such as their saddle and handlebar height and position, and crankarm length with the goal of improving power, endurance, speed, etc.?
I don't know what is done at the national or professional level, so I'll trust your answers about what you do for the riders who you coach.

Jay Kosta
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25 Aug 2017 21:06

Where there is evidence, I use the evidence, estimates of the effect of different crank lengths, different pedalling approaches, equipment to change the pedalling technique have proved to be very small or just not there. Where there is no research we look at best practice.

My money, having just coached a rider to the 20th World Level medal at Junior Worlds Track Champs in Italy, is still on trying to sustain power better for the event duration rather than trying to increase power.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

29 Aug 2017 15:15

CoachFergie wrote:
Because they are responding to the constraints of the cranks, bikes, gearing, and where they are riding. This is pretty simple stuff Noel.


How do cranks constrain a rider's pedalling ?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

29 Aug 2017 19:37

backdoor wrote:How do cranks constrain a rider's pedalling ?

----------------------
Typically the 'ball of the foot area' is firmly held a small distance above the axle of the pedal. And that distance is forced to remain constant (constrained) during the full rotation of the crank. Through ankle movement the rider can (and does) make small changes in the precise angle of the foot above the axle - but the rider cannot change the basic circular movement of the foot around the bottom bracket spindle.
For example, the foot is prevented (constrained) from moving diagonally UP from the 7 o'clock position to the 1 o'clock position.

Jay Kosta
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Re: Re:

31 Aug 2017 15:56

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:How do cranks constrain a rider's pedalling ?

----------------------
Typically the 'ball of the foot area' is firmly held a small distance above the axle of the pedal. And that distance is forced to remain constant (constrained) during the full rotation of the crank. Through ankle movement the rider can (and does) make small changes in the precise angle of the foot above the axle - but the rider cannot change the basic circular movement of the foot around the bottom bracket spindle.
For example, the foot is prevented (constrained) from moving diagonally UP from the 7 o'clock position to the 1 o'clock position.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
backdoor
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Re: Re:

31 Aug 2017 16:55

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:How do cranks constrain a rider's pedalling ?

----------------------
Typically the 'ball of the foot area' is firmly held a small distance above the axle of the pedal. And that distance is forced to remain constant (constrained) during the full rotation of the crank. Through ankle movement the rider can (and does) make small changes in the precise angle of the foot above the axle - but the rider cannot change the basic circular movement of the foot around the bottom bracket spindle.
For example, the foot is prevented (constrained) from moving diagonally UP from the 7 o'clock position to the 1 o'clock position.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


How would that 'diagonal taking up' improve your pedalling?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

31 Aug 2017 19:45

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
Because they are responding to the constraints of the cranks, bikes, gearing, and where they are riding. This is pretty simple stuff Noel.


How do cranks constrain a rider's pedalling ?


Try pedalling in an actual square and let us know how you get on.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

31 Aug 2017 21:25

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
Because they are responding to the constraints of the cranks, bikes, gearing, and where they are riding. This is pretty simple stuff Noel.


How do cranks constrain a rider's pedalling ?


Try pedalling in an actual square and let us know how you get on.


The movement of the legs when walking is very like that of natural pedalling and no constraining is needed for walking. This explains why the natural pedalling style is so ingrained in a rider's brain and muscles that coaches refuse to even consider the idea that a very different and more effective technique could exist. Cranks may constrain the movement of the legs but they do not constrain the torque generating technique of the two most powerful pedalling muscles (glutes and quads). This also explains why when cleats and toe-clips were invented riders were unable to avail of all they had to offer and as a result pedalling's dead spot sector is still in existence today.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 04:33

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
Because they are responding to the constraints of the cranks, bikes, gearing, and where they are riding. This is pretty simple stuff Noel.


How do cranks constrain a rider's pedalling ?


Try pedalling in an actual square and let us know how you get on.


The movement of the legs when walking is very like that of natural pedalling and no constraining is needed for walking. This explains why the natural pedalling style is so ingrained in a rider's brain and muscles that coaches refuse to even consider the idea that a very different and more effective technique could exist. Cranks may constrain the movement of the legs but they do not constrain the torque generating technique of the two most powerful pedalling muscles (glutes and quads). This also explains why when cleats and toe-clips were invented riders were unable to avail of all they had to offer and as a result pedalling's dead spot sector is still in existence today.


Unsupported speculation.
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 17:41

MarkvW wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
Because they are responding to the constraints of the cranks, bikes, gearing, and where they are riding. This is pretty simple stuff Noel.


How do cranks constrain a rider's pedalling ?


Try pedalling in an actual square and let us know how you get on.


The movement of the legs when walking is very like that of natural pedalling and no constraining is needed for walking. This explains why the natural pedalling style is so ingrained in a rider's brain and muscles that coaches refuse to even consider the idea that a very different and more effective technique could exist. Cranks may constrain the movement of the legs but they do not constrain the torque generating technique of the two most powerful pedalling muscles (glutes and quads). This also explains why when cleats and toe-clips were invented riders were unable to avail of all they had to offer and as a result pedalling's dead spot sector is still in existence today.


Unsupported speculation.


The explanation as to how John Cobb's shorter cranks eliminate the ' Dead Spot '.

" One final consideration as part of our current topic: The much feared “dead spot”, generally established to occur between ten and two o-clock in the complete rotation of a crank arm. Lieto points out that over the course of an Ironman bike segment (112 miles), it becomes increasingly difficult to stay smooth through the dead spot, and acknowledges that it could be easier to maintain efficiency by shortening it – literally – with the use of shorter cranks. "
backdoor
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01 Sep 2017 18:56

As said above, more unsupported speculation. Data, or it never happened.
Hamish Ferguson
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