Log in:  

Register

The pedaling technique thread

Moderator: King Boonen

09 May 2018 02:28

More repetition of nonsense. If it was better it would be easily measureable. Jim Martin has just had a paper accepted that may shed more light on this matter.

Scott Rake bars were legal for 5min.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
User avatar CoachFergie
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,686
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 21:36
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re:

11 May 2018 10:58

CoachFergie wrote:
So sorry Noel, the Google search you used to confirm your bias was wrong. Try again.



What was wrong ?
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

11 May 2018 12:57

Noel, the fact that you get good results from the technique doesn't mean that it is better for most people. If I recall correctly, you were motivated to develop the technique due to a physical problem that inhibited your using the 'standard technique / position'. And, it is not obvious that someone who CAN use the standard technique would benefit from your technique.

Jay
JayKosta
Member
 
Posts: 831
Joined: 25 Nov 2010 13:55

Re:

11 May 2018 13:57

JayKosta wrote:Noel, the fact that you get good results from the technique doesn't mean that it is better for most people. If I recall correctly, you were motivated to develop the technique due to a physical problem that inhibited your using the 'standard technique / position'. And, it is not obvious that someone who CAN use the standard technique would benefit from your technique.

Jay

You are correct, it was (on the bike only) severe lower back pain that would begin only a mile after starting. By changing application of peak torque from 3+ o'c to about 1.30, all lower back stress was completely removed as was the lower back pain. Like circular, ankling and mashing this technique can be developed and perfected by anyone. By spreading the workload over three of the hip/leg's most powerful muscles instead of two and applying maximal torque where all other cyclists' legs are idling, it should be obvious that you would have to improve performance in flat time trials where constant high gear pedalling can be used. Don't forget that third muscle in action around 11, 12 and 1 o'c is more powerful and highly fatigue resistant with higher slow twitch muscle fiber content than the glute or quad muscles.
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

Re: Re:

12 May 2018 08:38

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:Noel, the fact that you get good results from the technique doesn't mean that it is better for most people. If I recall correctly, you were motivated to develop the technique due to a physical problem that inhibited your using the 'standard technique / position'. And, it is not obvious that someone who CAN use the standard technique would benefit from your technique.

Jay

You are correct, it was (on the bike only) severe lower back pain that would begin only a mile after starting. By changing application of peak torque from 3+ o'c to about 1.30, all lower back stress was completely removed as was the lower back pain. Like circular, ankling and mashing this technique can be developed and perfected by anyone. By spreading the workload over three of the hip/leg's most powerful muscles instead of two and applying maximal torque where all other cyclists' legs are idling, it should be obvious that you would have to improve performance in flat time trials where constant high gear pedalling can be used. Don't forget that third muscle in action around 11, 12 and 1 o'c is more powerful and highly fatigue resistant with higher slow twitch muscle fiber content than the glute or quad muscles.


Data, or this is just your lame imagination.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
User avatar CoachFergie
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,686
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 21:36
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: Re:

13 May 2018 15:42

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:Noel, the fact that you get good results from the technique doesn't mean that it is better for most people. If I recall correctly, you were motivated to develop the technique due to a physical problem that inhibited your using the 'standard technique / position'. And, it is not obvious that someone who CAN use the standard technique would benefit from your technique.

Jay

You are correct, it was (on the bike only) severe lower back pain that would begin only a mile after starting. By changing application of peak torque from 3+ o'c to about 1.30, all lower back stress was completely removed as was the lower back pain. Like circular, ankling and mashing this technique can be developed and perfected by anyone. By spreading the workload over three of the hip/leg's most powerful muscles instead of two and applying maximal torque where all other cyclists' legs are idling, it should be obvious that you would have to improve performance in flat time trials where constant high gear pedalling can be used. Don't forget that third muscle in action around 11, 12 and 1 o'c is more powerful and highly fatigue resistant with higher slow twitch muscle fiber content than the glute or quad muscles.


Data, or this is just your lame imagination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
This man''s non climbing tt results. You have not said what was wrong with my google searches.
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

Re: Re:

13 May 2018 20:14

backdoor wrote:... The soleus muscle in the lower leg is not only more powerful than the glute or quad muscles but it is also highly fatigue resistant and ideal for the endurance required for constant high gear power output in TT's, it has about 20 % more slow twitch muscle fibre content than the glutes or quads. ...

-------------------
Noel, I'm guessing that CoachFergie does not agree with your evaluation of the soleus muscle's potential benefit in pedalling. From a very brief reading about the soleus, it seems to be mostly involved with 'pushing the ball of the foot forward/downward'. And while it may be very strong (high static force) and have high endurance, the actual 'distance of motion' is fairly short. And to produce POWER for cycling, force needs to be applied over a considerable portion of the crank rotation.

Yes, if additional power could be generated by aggressive use of the soleus in the TDC sector WITH NO LESSENING OF OTHER MUSCLE EFFECTIVENESS, then there might be value. Many people have tried variations of 'ankling', and yet the 'standard pedalling technique' has not been replaced. You can do your own search about 'ankling pedal' - I think this might be a good starting point - http://www.roberts-1.com/b/pt/ankling/discuss/

Jay
JayKosta
Member
 
Posts: 831
Joined: 25 Nov 2010 13:55

Re: Re:

13 May 2018 21:26

backdoor wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
This man''s non climbing tt results. You have not said what was wrong with my google searches.


A youtube link is not data. A plausible explanation for Jacques success is a high VO2max, high fractional utilisation of that VO2max and high efficiency.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
User avatar CoachFergie
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,686
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 21:36
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: Re:

14 May 2018 18:55

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:... The soleus muscle in the lower leg is not only more powerful than the glute or quad muscles but it is also highly fatigue resistant and ideal for the endurance required for constant high gear power output in TT's, it has about 20 % more slow twitch muscle fibre content than the glutes or quads. ...

-------------------
From a very brief reading about the soleus, it seems to be mostly involved with 'pushing the ball of the foot forward/downward'. And while it may be very strong (high static force) and have high endurance, the actual 'distance of motion' is fairly short. And to produce POWER for cycling, force needs to be applied over a considerable portion of the crank rotation.
Jay


When using this technique you are using an earlier and very different forceful type of knee extension made possible by the soleus, quads and glutes. With all three powerful muscles working in unison and with a strong forward force coming from the hip this different type of knee extension drives this maximal fully tangential force forward past TDC and bends it down around 1 o'c to merge with the natural downward force at 2 o'c. When perfected this is one extenced power stroke from 11-5 o'c, which means only one signal from brain to muscles is necessary at simultaneous changeover of leg power application. Powercrank, circular and ankling are a failure because you are trying to join the separate independent actions of three of the leg's weakest muscles with the strongest muscles used in the downstroke, all of which results in a weaker downstroke and overall loss of power because the brain is trying to send two different power generating signals at the same time four times around the pedalling circle and it delays the start of your downstroke.
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

14 May 2018 20:21

What do you think is needed to convince cyclists to train and become proficient in your technique? How long of a time commitment do you think is required, and how will the person's cycling performance be affected during training?

If a reasonable training program can be developed, why do you think people have not embrassed the technique?

Jay
JayKosta
Member
 
Posts: 831
Joined: 25 Nov 2010 13:55

Re: Re:

15 May 2018 19:44

backdoor wrote:When using this technique you are using an earlier and very different forceful type of knee extension made possible by the soleus, quads and glutes. With all three powerful muscles working in unison and with a strong forward force coming from the hip this different type of knee extension drives this maximal fully tangential force forward past TDC and bends it down around 1 o'c to merge with the natural downward force at 2 o'c. When perfected this is one extenced power stroke from 11-5 o'c, which means only one signal from brain to muscles is necessary at simultaneous changeover of leg power application. Powercrank, circular and ankling are a failure because you are trying to join the separate independent actions of three of the leg's weakest muscles with the strongest muscles used in the downstroke, all of which results in a weaker downstroke and overall loss of power because the brain is trying to send two different power generating signals at the same time four times around the pedalling circle and it delays the start of your downstroke.


Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense. You have never provided any data of your method not have you given a valid example of having taught anyone with any success. Do you even ride a bicycle Noel? It's very easy to disprove your theory. We pedal the way we are constrained to. Any attempt to change this requires more effort and this reduces efficiency. Pretty basic physiology, anatomy and neuroscience.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
User avatar CoachFergie
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,686
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 21:36
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: Re:

15 May 2018 20:05

CoachFergie wrote:Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense.

Hamish, Hamish, Hamish... you don't get it. Noel is a troll. His goal is to waste people's time. Its his life's passion. Image
PhitBoy
Junior Member
 
Posts: 94
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 18:58

Re: Re:

15 May 2018 23:08

PhitBoy wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense.

Hamish, Hamish, Hamish... you don't get it. Noel is a troll. His goal is to waste people's time. Its his life's passion. Image



My only objective was to discover the source of Anquetil's mysterious extra power in time trials and that I succeeded in doing while discovering how to eliminate the root cause of cycling's worst lower back pain in the process.
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

Re: Re:

15 May 2018 23:52

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:When using this technique you are using an earlier and very different forceful type of knee extension made possible by the soleus, quads and glutes. With all three powerful muscles working in unison and with a strong forward force coming from the hip this different type of knee extension drives this maximal fully tangential force forward past TDC and bends it down around 1 o'c to merge with the natural downward force at 2 o'c. When perfected this is one extenced power stroke from 11-5 o'c, which means only one signal from brain to muscles is necessary at simultaneous changeover of leg power application. Powercrank, circular and ankling are a failure because you are trying to join the separate independent actions of three of the leg's weakest muscles with the strongest muscles used in the downstroke, all of which results in a weaker downstroke and overall loss of power because the brain is trying to send two different power generating signals at the same time four times around the pedalling circle and it delays the start of your downstroke.


Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense. You have never provided any data of your method not have you given a valid example of having taught anyone with any success. Do you even ride a bicycle Noel? It's very easy to disprove your theory. We pedal the way we are constrained to. Any attempt to change this requires more effort and this reduces efficiency. Pretty basic physiology, anatomy and neuroscience.


You are not attempting to change your pedalling style, you are adding an additional more effective technique for use in flat individual time trials. Mashing and circular are still best for road racing because of the stop/start type of power application and the sprinting. Attempts to change pedalling failed because all they could do was try to apply torque around 360 deg. by adding some of the leg's weakest muscles to the technique, it can only be done by concentrating on 180 deg. and including the leg's unused most powerful and most fatigue resistant muscle in the torque application. Your pedalling is constrained because of your lack of knowledge on the subject, the way you learned to pedal as a child without cleats/toe clips is so ingrained in your brain you are incapable of thinking otherwise. How can you disprove my theory ? Go to an indoor tug o'war training session and you will soon discover what is meant by a forceful forward knee extension that can be adapted for use around TDC.
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

Re: Re:

16 May 2018 09:05

PhitBoy wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense.

Hamish, Hamish, Hamish... you don't get it. Noel is a troll. His goal is to waste people's time. Its his life's passion.



How long will it take pedalling researchers to realize they are leaving the most powerful and most fatigue resistant muscle in the lower body lying idle when it could be applying maximal torque around TDC and 1 o'c ?
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

Re: Re:

16 May 2018 14:38

Please allow me to interpret what you've been saying for the last several years:
"I am an elderly recreational cyclist. I had musculo-skeletal issues that gave me excruciating back pain when cycling. When watching a video of a pro cyclist from long ago, I came up with an idea for a pedaling technique. When I tried this technique, it relieved my back pain. I can now cycle comfortably. (We're all happy for you!)
While I have no performance data, and have refused several offers to have my technique analyzed, I believe it is a more powerful and/or efficient alternative to typical pedaling technique employed by almost all cyclists. Indeed, I have concocted elaborate explanations of how and why it works even though I have no training in exercise physiology or biomechanics. "
Does that sum it up nicely? Or, as I suggested earlier, are you really just trolling for attention and reactions?
.
backdoor wrote:My only objective was to discover the source of Anquetil's mysterious extra power in time trials and that I succeeded in doing while discovering how to eliminate the root cause of cycling's worst lower back pain in the process.
PhitBoy
Junior Member
 
Posts: 94
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 18:58

Re: Re:

16 May 2018 16:28

PhitBoy wrote:Please allow me to interpret what you've been saying for the last several years:
"I am an elderly recreational cyclist. I had musculo-skeletal issues that gave me excruciating back pain when cycling. When watching a video of a pro cyclist from long ago, I came up with an idea for a pedaling technique. When I tried this technique, it relieved my back pain. I can now cycle comfortably. (We're all happy for you!)
While I have no performance data, and have refused several offers to have my technique analyzed, I believe it is a more powerful and/or efficient alternative to typical pedaling technique employed by almost all cyclists. Indeed, I have concocted elaborate explanations of how and why it works even though I have no training in exercise physiology or biomechanics. "
Does that sum it up nicely? Or, as I suggested earlier, are you really just trolling for attention and reactions?
.
backdoor wrote:My only objective was to discover the source of Anquetil's mysterious extra power in time trials and that I succeeded in doing while discovering how to eliminate the root cause of cycling's worst lower back pain in the process.


Anquetil had no training in exercise physiology or biomechanics, all he needed was an innovative mind and common sense to discover how to apply the greatest possible tangential force to his crank during its rotation.
I discovered this technique long before Anquetil's video became available in 2001.
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

Re: Re:

16 May 2018 17:41

Ah, so I was right the first time. Troll on Noel, troll on.

backdoor wrote: greatest possible tangential force to his crank during its rotation.
PhitBoy
Junior Member
 
Posts: 94
Joined: 18 Jun 2015 18:58

Re: Re:

16 May 2018 20:06

PhitBoy wrote:Ah, so I was right the first time. Troll on Noel, troll on.

backdoor wrote: greatest possible tangential force to his crank during its rotation.



Right about what ? When his technique was perfected, during each crank's rotation he gave total concentration to 180 deg. of maximal force application, which with both cranks gave 360 deg. of highly effective crank torque with no dead spot sector, eliminating the need for those nonsensical non round chainrings. Perfecting involved attempting to start each power stroke earlier and earlier until a simultaneous changeover of power application was reached.
" You have to realize that Anquetil perfected his style in training with a concentration that often made him resent the presence of other riders around him " . That's understandable, using his technique you need a clear road ahead. As I asked CF, where am I wrong ?
backdoor
Member
 
Posts: 401
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

16 May 2018 20:50

Wrong because you have no proof. Jacques had the right combination of VO2max, Fractionalisation of VO2max and Efficiency. The rest is all conjecture.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
User avatar CoachFergie
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,686
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 21:36
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Back to top