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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2017 21:23

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.



That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.

What rubbish.

Not only are you refusing to provide any data to support your claims but you are now ignoring the data that does exist in the scientific literature.

So once again Noel, data please. It's really very simple thing to do....
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2017 21:50

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.



That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.


Not only are you refusing to provide any data to support your claims but you are now ignoring the data that does exist in the scientific literature.


I would like to see one of these attempts to change the power stroke.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2017 23:02

backdoor wrote:That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.

------------------------------------------------
My guess is that some people did try to change their pedalling technique to something near to what you describe. But they either quickly gave up because they thought it was too difficult, or they tried for a while and didn't see an improvement.

Getting people to do (for example) a 6 week test in which they dedicated themself to learning the technique and doing serious training with it might also be difficult. Serious competitors or even enthusiastic recreational riders would want some assurance that they would get a benefit, and not just 'waste' 6 weeks.

The most likely way to validate your technique would be via an accomplished rider who already uses it, and then doing comparison tests with that rider using the traditional technique.

From everyone's comments, I don't believe there is anyone who is 'philosophically opposed' to your technique - it's just that it doesn't seem to 'make sense' that it would give the benefits you suggest.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2017 23:06

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.



That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.


I guess if all you do is cherry pick youtube and blogs to confirm your bias you may have missed the many gimmicks out there that try claim improved pedalling techniques, the large number of studies that investigate different pedalling methods.

The above, however, is still not support, data, for your nonsense claims.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2017 23:08

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.



That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.


Not only are you refusing to provide any data to support your claims but you are now ignoring the data that does exist in the scientific literature.


I would like to see one of these attempts to change the power stroke.


FRANK DUCKING DAY!!!!
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2017 23:19

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.



That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.


Not only are you refusing to provide any data to support your claims but you are now ignoring the data that does exist in the scientific literature.


I would like to see one of these attempts to change the power stroke.


FRANK DUCKING DAY!!!!


Frank with his PC's was attempting to apply extra power through TDC, BDC and in the upstroke, not to change the power stroke.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2017 23:47

backdoor wrote:Frank with his PC's was attempting to apply extra power through TDC, BDC and in the upstroke, not to change the power stroke.

"the power stroke" is a meaningless term.

Data please.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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04 Apr 2017 01:44

I don't think Noels Power Stroke has anything to do with cycling.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2017 09:51

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:Frank with his PC's was attempting to apply extra power through TDC, BDC and in the upstroke, not to change the power stroke.

"the power stroke" is a meaningless term.

Data please.



See Zone 1

http://www.bicycling.com/training/fitness/perfect-pedal-stroke
backdoor
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2017 16:40

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.



That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.


I guess if all you do is cherry pick youtube and blogs to confirm your bias you may have missed the many gimmicks out there that try claim improved pedalling techniques, the large number of studies that investigate different pedalling methods.

The above, however, is still not support, data, for your nonsense claims.


In all cases above they are still using the same natural style in which maximal torque can only be applied around 3 o'c. Any changes made to technique were outside the power stroke and if anything reduced the power of the down stroke and overall power. Unweighting the one change that could increase downstroke power appears to be unresearched. For over 120 years using force sensing equipment, creating complicated formulas and using computer simulations the experts have tried to improve the natural pedalling style and they failed because it cannot be improved. As you said yourself, where improving pedalling technique is concerned, over 500 useless peer reviewed studies. Common sense is all that's required, you adapt and merge part of the power generating techniques of another sport and you get the perfect pedalling technique, in the same way as triathletes used part of the downhill skiers technique to get their perfect aerodynamic position, which is something cycling experts also missed.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2017 17:02

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:Frank with his PC's was attempting to apply extra power through TDC, BDC and in the upstroke, not to change the power stroke.

"the power stroke" is a meaningless term.

Data please.



See Zone 1

http://www.bicycling.com/training/fitness/perfect-pedal-stroke


Not peer review.

I never said they were useless studies, they are studies that show us that change has no impact on performance. This is easily measurable with any power meter!
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2017 17:38

CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:Frank with his PC's was attempting to apply extra power through TDC, BDC and in the upstroke, not to change the power stroke.

"the power stroke" is a meaningless term.

Data please.



See Zone 1

http://www.bicycling.com/training/fitness/perfect-pedal-stroke


Not peer review.

I never said they were useless studies, they are studies that show us that change has no impact on performance.


That's worse, misleading information which led experts like A Pruitt to believe the perfect pedalling technique does not exist. All those studies proved was, tinkering with the natural technique will not improve performance.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2017 17:48

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.



That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.


I guess if all you do is cherry pick youtube and blogs to confirm your bias you may have missed the many gimmicks out there that try claim improved pedalling techniques, the large number of studies that investigate different pedalling methods.

The above, however, is still not support, data, for your nonsense claims.


In all cases above they are still using the same natural style in which maximal torque can only be applied around 3 o'c. Any changes made to technique were outside the power stroke and if anything reduced the power of the down stroke and overall power. Unweighting the one change that could increase downstroke power appears to be unresearched. For over 120 years using force sensing equipment, creating complicated formulas and using computer simulations the experts have tried to improve the natural pedalling style and they failed because it cannot be improved. As you said yourself, where improving pedalling technique is concerned, over 500 useless peer reviewed studies. Common sense is all that's required, you adapt and merge part of the power generating techniques of another sport and you get the perfect pedalling technique, in the same way as triathletes used part of the downhill skiers technique to get their perfect aerodynamic position, which is something cycling experts also missed.


Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.

To the others here...is there any point continuing to beat your head against a wall? Noel has no interest in actually proving or confirming his claims, since he already believes them to be 100% proven. Any request is met with a YouTube link and some fluffy language about a perfect technique...a complete waste of time.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2017 20:21

JamesCun wrote:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.


I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling. Laurent Fignon's back room team were probably waiting for data to confirm that a narrower hand/arm position would improve time in a TT, not so with Lemond and he cruised to victory in that Tour de F.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

04 Apr 2017 21:20

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.


I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling. Laurent Fignon's back room team were probably waiting for data to confirm that a narrower hand/arm position would improve time in a TT, not so with Lemond and he cruised to victory in that Tour de F.


People have no doubt that you can alter pedalling mechanics to increase force in certain segments. That is really easy to achieve. What people do doubt is the performance improvement that you claim comes from that change. Pulling up also increases power output, but doesn't increase sustainable power when you consider metabolic limitations. People aren't going to waste their time chasing rainbows when there is no pot of gold at the end.
JamesCun
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04 Apr 2017 21:40

Golly, what drivel. Fignon would have won the Tour in 1989 had he worn an aero helmet! That provides no support to your ideas.

We all know it is easy to apply extra power through any section of the pedal stroke. But what any power meter shows you is that this comes at a cost of less power elsewhere in the pedal stroke and lower efficiency.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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04 Apr 2017 22:01

Data please Noel.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

05 Apr 2017 07:36

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.


I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling.


I'd argue that you are the one incapable of realising the effect it has: it -- at best -- has no effect.
berend
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Re: Re:

11 Apr 2017 18:15

berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.


I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling.


I'd argue that you are the one incapable of realising the effect it has: it -- at best -- has no effect.



Leaving aside the increased tangential effect of the force you are applying, your rear wheel is getting its power with the same smoothness as an out of phase tandem.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tandem2.html
backdoor
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Re: Re:

11 Apr 2017 19:48

backdoor wrote:
berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
Too bad you are either too lazy or selfish to share your wisdom with others. And I don't mean your random musings here or a link to a YouTube video of a rider from last century.


I've already explained in detail what's involved. What I find hard to understand is the lack of common sense found in cycling. Alex and CF keep asking for data, which can only mean they are incapable of realizing the effect having the ability to apply maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 can have on pedalling.


I'd argue that you are the one incapable of realising the effect it has: it -- at best -- has no effect.



Leaving aside the increased tangential effect of the force you are applying, your rear wheel is getting its power with the same smoothness as an out of phase tandem.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tandem2.html

I've already shown the effect of changing the manner in which power is applied around the pedal stroke makes no difference to the sustainable speed of a rider on a bicycle.

IOW in order to go faster, ceteris paribus, one needs to increase the power. So far you have provided zero data to demonstrate this happens when one changes the way they pedal from what they normally do to your mythical technique.

So, data please.
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