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The pedaling technique thread

Moderator: King Boonen

Re:

27 Mar 2017 21:17

CoachFergie wrote:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.



How would any power meter show me ?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

27 Mar 2017 21:28

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.



How would any power meter show me ?

Since your mythical technique enables someone to produce a gob smacking increase in sustainable power output, then it would be trivial to measure the change in performance.

So, once again, data please.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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27 Mar 2017 23:06

Regarding use of a power meter -

I think that any rider who is adept at using a 'special technique' for TTs would also be adequately adept at using a 'standard technique' -- unless that person trained ONLY using the special technique and did not do typical 'road training' where the special technique would be cumbersome.

So it should be possible to have that person do comparison TTs with a PM tracking the effort - special technique, and standard technique. The 'timed results' and the PM results could be examined and compared. Or perhaps the comparison of technique could be done on a stationary bike ergometer.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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27 Mar 2017 23:29

The smart money is still on Jacques having a high VO2max, good fractional utilisation of that VO2max and high efficiency.

I don't have data on Jacques, but there is a considerable amount of data that suggest that is what usually does the trick!
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

28 Mar 2017 01:41

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.



How would any power meter show me ?

How would it not show you?
User avatar 42x16ss
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Re: Re:

28 Mar 2017 09:30

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.



How would any power meter show me ?

Since your mythical technique enables someone to produce a gob smacking increase in sustainable power output, then it would be trivial to measure the change in performance.

So, once again, data please.


If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

28 Mar 2017 13:30

backdoor wrote:If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?

-----------------------------------------
That would result in a very odd looking graph of torque production.

It's likely that the sectors between 11-12 and 3-4 o'clock would show increasing and then decreasing torque, and the 12-3 sector would be a constant flat line of high-torque. The sector between 6-9 would show 0 or negative torque depending on how much unweighting or pulling-up was done. The 4-6 and 9-11 sectors are less obvious and depend on the precise way the pedalling is done, but the torque would probably be near 0.

I don't recall ANY torque graphs indicating that 'same maximal torque' is ever produced for more than a few degrees of crank rotation. I doubt that it is physically possible unless the torque is consciously kept the same at a level lower than true physical maximum.

It would be a mistake to conclude from a torque graph that one technique was better than another without considering all the other other aspects involved - such as aerodymanics, muscle endurance, fuel usage, riding skill, etc.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re: Re:

28 Mar 2017 13:36

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.



How would any power meter show me ?

Since your mythical technique enables someone to produce a gob smacking increase in sustainable power output, then it would be trivial to measure the change in performance.

So, once again, data please.


If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?


It would have the effect of increasing energy consumption. You'd have to show that it results in better race outcomes, since producing maximal torque is not what wins a race.
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28 Mar 2017 19:29

Noel's simple mind doesn't get that power is easy to increase. Sustaining it for the duration or distance needed is the challenge.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

28 Mar 2017 19:36

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.



How would any power meter show me ?

Since your mythical technique enables someone to produce a gob smacking increase in sustainable power output, then it would be trivial to measure the change in performance.

So, once again, data please.


If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?

Provide the data and show us.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re:

29 Mar 2017 09:56

CoachFergie wrote:Noel's simple mind doesn't get that power is easy to increase. Sustaining it for the duration or distance needed is the challenge.


It's your mind that fails to get it. Increasing power is easy, it's how it's done that makes all the difference where sustainability is concerned. That's why different techniques are necessary for road racing and time trials. You know of only one way to power your pedals and increase sustainability. For TT's you need a technique that can give a large increase in the pedalling effectiveness of your power stroke, that's impossible with natural pedalling. With this technique you get the additional advantage of being able to extend your power stroke and make maximal use of that idling TDC sector. To prove this you need a PM that can give genuine readings of your pedalling effectiveness and torque distribution.
backdoor
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29 Mar 2017 11:59

Data Noel, not your vivid imagination. Any power meter could be used to prove this! Better technique through greater torque, greater efficiency will always have to equal more power for longer durations.

YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN THIS! EVER!!!
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

29 Mar 2017 20:12

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Noel's simple mind doesn't get that power is easy to increase. Sustaining it for the duration or distance needed is the challenge.


It's your mind that fails to get it. Increasing power is easy, it's how it's done that makes all the difference where sustainability is concerned. That's why different techniques are necessary for road racing and time trials. You know of only one way to power your pedals and increase sustainability. For TT's you need a technique that can give a large increase in the pedalling effectiveness of your power stroke, that's impossible with natural pedalling. With this technique you get the additional advantage of being able to extend your power stroke and make maximal use of that idling TDC sector. To prove this you need a PM that can give genuine readings of your pedalling effectiveness and torque distribution.


No Noel. All you need is to measure the sustainable power before and after a pedalling technique intervention.
Even so, the tools to measure torque around a pedal stroke have been available for decades*.

So, once again, data please.

* actually the first force measurement pedals were invented in the 1890s
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

31 Mar 2017 11:40

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:If a rider could apply the same maximal torque to his crank at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, what effect would it have on pedalling?

-----------------------------------------
That would result in a very odd looking graph of torque production.

It's likely that the sectors between 11-12 and 3-4 o'clock would show increasing and then decreasing torque, and the 12-3 sector would be a constant flat line of high-torque. The sector between 6-9 would show 0 or negative torque depending on how much unweighting or pulling-up was done. The 4-6 and 9-11 sectors are less obvious and depend on the precise way the pedalling is done, but the torque would probably be near 0.

I don't recall ANY torque graphs indicating that 'same maximal torque' is ever produced for more than a few degrees of crank rotation. I doubt that it is physically possible unless the torque is consciously kept the same at a level lower than true physical maximum.

It would be a mistake to conclude from a torque graph that one technique was better than another without considering all the other other aspects involved - such as aerodymanics, muscle endurance, fuel usage, riding skill, etc.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


That's a good description of the torque graph but there would be a slight rise in line at 1.30 where peak maximal torque would be taking place, torque between 3-5 would be same as with natural pedalling, the sector between 5 and 11 would show 0. Maximal torque means maximal force with almost 100% torque return. This is a high gear technique for time trials not road races and it can make a large reduction in knee stress. This pedalling graph is made possible by a simple switch in the use of muscles especially the glutes, lower legs and ankles. As for aerodynamics etc, you only have to look at Anquetil's position and TT results.
backdoor
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31 Mar 2017 13:09

Data Noel, not your vivid imagination. And position and TT results are proof of nothing. Anquetil won because he had the right mix of VO2max, fractional utilisation of VO2max and efficiency.
Hamish Ferguson
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31 Mar 2017 13:18

We can 'speculate' about what the torque graph would show, and try to interpret what it means, but without actual testing and analysis of data we're just guessing.
And regarding Anq's success in TTs - it's unclear whether his success was BECAUSE or INSPITE of pedalling technique.

Jay Kosta
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Re:

31 Mar 2017 19:44

JayKosta wrote:
And regarding Anq's success in TTs - it's unclear whether his success was BECAUSE or INSPITE of pedalling technique.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


J. Bobet can answer that question, he is the only rider that I know of who noticed Anquetil had no dead spot sector in his TT technique. If you could use the technique it would be very clear to you. You also said you can't tell from a graph if one technique is better than another. It's not a case of one technique being better than another, it's being more suitable than another for the type of torque that's required. Natural pedalling's sinusoidal graph is best for the accelerating and decelerating of road racing but for time trials you need the smoothest possible way of applying max torque to the cranks and this involves replacing that dead spot sector with maximal torque at TDC. You can feel that surge of power as your foot goes over the top.
backdoor
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31 Mar 2017 19:49

Crikey Noel, most nutters find the voices in their head tell them they are wealthy, attractive, popular, hated, to kill and so forth. Yours tell what you think a dead guy pedalled like. You sure lucked out in the nutbar stakes!

All this nonsense on the internet and you haven't once taught a local rider and transformed their TT ability! That's just sad!!!
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

31 Mar 2017 20:23

CoachFergie wrote:
All this nonsense on the internet and you haven't once taught a local rider and transformed their TT ability! That's just sad!!!


Not sad, most satisfying. As I said before, my only objective after only taking up cycling in my forties was to find the perfect pedalling technique, their only interest is in the latest most expensive gizmos. That's not surprising when all coaches like yourself are telling them technique is of no importance.
backdoor
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31 Mar 2017 20:52

Ha ha yeah that is why riders I coach have the best gate start techniques, flying 200m lines for various design tracks, passing strategies, tactical appreciation, pacing strategies for different tracks, courses and conditions compared to other local coaches.

But they are technical skills that can be quantified and easily coached.

Yours is a myth.
Hamish Ferguson
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