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## The pedaling technique thread

Moderator: King Boonen

### Re: Re:

backdoor wrote:He is referring to how muscles are used in a pedalling technique. That would be impossible, it's a combination of muscles that are used simultaneously to drive a maximal force forward from the hip to the ball of foot. You are not independently kicking forward from the knee as in the circular style, it's one continuous power stroke from 11 to 5 o'c. These t o'w muscles, used in exactly the same way, are capable of generating more than enough force for maximal torque at TDC when in a leaning forward position and bending it round to 1 and 2 o'c. You need only a small fraction of the maximal force these muscles are capable of producing when in the leaning back i t o'w position. It's a matter of adapting the leaning forward position for use on a bicycle, made easier by the fact that it is self bike fitting because you have two important lines to work from.

Here is a pic overlaying anquetil and a tug of war. Both force vectors are forward, since anquetil is picture at TDC and the force at that point is directly forward. Please explain how you can apply maximal force at that position and how that can possibly be compared to tug of war?? Keep in mind that contracting the glutes at TDC will cause the foot to move down. Contracting the glutes at 11 with cause the foot to move down and backwards.

JamesCun
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### Re: Re:

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:He is referring to how muscles are used in a pedalling technique. That would be impossible, it's a combination of muscles that are used simultaneously to drive a maximal force forward from the hip to the ball of foot. You are not independently kicking forward from the knee as in the circular style, it's one continuous power stroke from 11 to 5 o'c. These t o'w muscles, used in exactly the same way, are capable of generating more than enough force for maximal torque at TDC when in a leaning forward position and bending it round to 1 and 2 o'c. You need only a small fraction of the maximal force these muscles are capable of producing when in the leaning back i t o'w position. It's a matter of adapting the leaning forward position for use on a bicycle, made easier by the fact that it is self bike fitting because you have two important lines to work from.

Here is a pic overlaying anquetil and a tug of war. Both force vectors are forward, since anquetil is picture at TDC and the force at that point is directly forward. Please explain how you can apply maximal force at that position and how that can possibly be compared to tug of war?? Keep in mind that contracting the glutes at TDC will cause the foot to move down. Contracting the glutes at 11 with cause the foot to move down and backwards.

It appears you don't understand there is a vast difference between the muscle techniques of outdoor (field) To'W and indoor (mat) T o'W. Outdoor uses muscles as mashers do and indoor uses muscles as Anquetil did in flat tt's, As I said if you went to an indoor training session all would be revealed.
backdoor
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Noel, it doesn’t work. What you think you see isn’t backed up by credible data. It’s not as effective as mashing and certainly not as efficient. I have tested this and he numbers show you are wrong. Less power and less efficient. Jacques chose his parents better than the rest at the time. Many people pedal the same as he does and their results were no where near as good.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
CoachFergie
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### Re:

CoachFergie wrote:Noel, it doesn’t work. What you think you see isn’t backed up by credible data. It’s not as effective as mashing and certainly not as efficient. I have tested this and he numbers show you are wrong. Less power and less efficient. Jacques chose his parents better than the rest at the time. Many people pedal the same as he does and their results were no where near as good.

What you tested was half of the circular style which uses weakest and strongest muscles'.
You did not answer my question, did this study have any practical implications for you ?
http://www.tradewindsports.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Leong-14-UNPUBLISHED-PhD-Oval-vs-round-sub-max-and-max.pdf
backdoor
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Posts: 407
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

More data to support my position.

Where is the data to support yours.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
CoachFergie
Senior Member

Posts: 2,686
Joined: 21 Apr 2009 21:36
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

### Re: Re:

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Noel, it doesn’t work. What you think you see isn’t backed up by credible data. It’s not as effective as mashing and certainly not as efficient. I have tested this and he numbers show you are wrong. Less power and less efficient. Jacques chose his parents better than the rest at the time. Many people pedal the same as he does and their results were no where near as good.

What you tested was half of the circular style which uses weakest and strongest muscles'.
You did not answer my question, did this study have any practical implications for you ?
http://www.tradewindsports.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Leong-14-UNPUBLISHED-PhD-Oval-vs-round-sub-max-and-max.pdf

As a coach, the practical implication of a study like that is to reaffirm there are a multitude of far more important things to be concerned with for performance improvement than the shape of one's chainrings.
Alex Simmons/RST
Senior Member

Posts: 2,280
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 23:47
Location: Australia

### Re: Re:

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:He is referring to how muscles are used in a pedalling technique. That would be impossible, it's a combination of muscles that are used simultaneously to drive a maximal force forward from the hip to the ball of foot. You are not independently kicking forward from the knee as in the circular style, it's one continuous power stroke from 11 to 5 o'c. These t o'w muscles, used in exactly the same way, are capable of generating more than enough force for maximal torque at TDC when in a leaning forward position and bending it round to 1 and 2 o'c. You need only a small fraction of the maximal force these muscles are capable of producing when in the leaning back i t o'w position. It's a matter of adapting the leaning forward position for use on a bicycle, made easier by the fact that it is self bike fitting because you have two important lines to work from.

Here is a pic overlaying anquetil and a tug of war. Both force vectors are forward, since anquetil is picture at TDC and the force at that point is directly forward. Please explain how you can apply maximal force at that position and how that can possibly be compared to tug of war?? Keep in mind that contracting the glutes at TDC will cause the foot to move down. Contracting the glutes at 11 with cause the foot to move down and backwards.

It appears you don't understand there is a vast difference between the muscle techniques of outdoor (field) To'W and indoor (mat) T o'W. Outdoor uses muscles as mashers do and indoor uses muscles as Anquetil did in flat tt's, As I said if you went to an indoor training session all would be revealed.

What is the difference? Still pushing with the glutes and quads to direct the force down through the feet. Because of the pulling from the opposing team and friction of the feet, the resultant is straight back. Still don’t see how this muscle function translates to cycling???

JamesCun
Junior Member

Posts: 262
Joined: 01 Jun 2014 12:42

### Re: Re:

[quote="JamesCun

What is the difference? Still pushing with the glutes and quads to direct the force down through the feet. Because of the pulling from the opposing team and friction of the feet, the resultant is straight back. Still don’t see how this muscle function translates to cycling???

[/quote]

It's not what the back is doing that's important, it's how their lower body muscles generate the forward force as they take their backward steps to victory. It will give maximal torque at 12,1 and 2 o'c to merge with the natural downward torque until 5.
backdoor
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Posts: 407
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

### Re: Re:

[quote="Alex Simmons/RST
As a coach, the practical implication of a study like that is to reaffirm there are a multitude of far more important things to be concerned with for performance improvement than the shape of one's chainrings.[/quote]

The researcher was not convinced, he intends to continue searching for the optimum non round chainring.
backdoor
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Posts: 407
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

### Re: Re:

backdoor wrote:[quote="JamesCun

What is the difference? Still pushing with the glutes and quads to direct the force down through the feet. Because of the pulling from the opposing team and friction of the feet, the resultant is straight back. Still don’t see how this muscle function translates to cycling???

It's not what the back is doing that's important, it's how their lower body muscles generate the forward force as they take their backward steps to victory. It will give maximal torque at 12,1 and 2 o'c to merge with the natural downward torque until 5.[/quote]

I never said the back did anything. I said the friction and tension from the rope allow the forces pushing straight through the feet to move the people backwards.

You still haven’t said how the muscles used would be applicable to cycling. It is a completely different position. The tug of war people are extending the hip and knee to direct force through the foot. If you do that at TDC on a bike you will push yourself upwards off the seat. Doesn’t sound super useful.
JamesCun
Junior Member

Posts: 262
Joined: 01 Jun 2014 12:42

### Re: Re:

backdoor wrote: The researcher was not convinced, he intends to continue searching for the optimum non round chainring.

Not quite. This is what he actually said:

A future direction would be to combine the methodological approaches used in these series of studies with the utilization of chainring eccentricities beyond those commercially available.

IOW these ones don't elicit a performance advantage, so perhaps it might be interesting to see what happens if tests are done with more radical chainring eccentricity. Not an unusual approach when testing something to find out at what point, if at all, a difference (in this case being chainring eccentricity) does cause a measurable impact.
Alex Simmons/RST
Senior Member

Posts: 2,280
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 23:47
Location: Australia

### Re: Re:

[quote="backdoor

The researcher was not convinced, he intends to continue searching for the optimum non round chainring.[/quote]

The bat shiz crazy person looks at the opinion of the researcher. High Performance Coaches and Sport Scientists look at the data.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
CoachFergie
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Joined: 21 Apr 2009 21:36
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

### Re: Re:

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:[quote="JamesCun

What is the difference? Still pushing with the glutes and quads to direct the force down through the feet. Because of the pulling from the opposing team and friction of the feet, the resultant is straight back. Still don’t see how this muscle function translates to cycling???

You still haven’t said how the muscles used would be applicable to cycling. It is a completely different position. The tug of war people are extending the hip and knee to direct force through the foot. If you do that at TDC on a bike you will push yourself upwards off the seat. Doesn’t sound super useful.

I already said this technique can be used in a leaning forward position same as on a bike. At TDC it's a forward force not a downward force which can be counteracted by the arms making it even more effective. On the mat they have to produce two forces, sufficient downward force with their bodyweight to prevent sliding on the mat and a powerful forward force to drive themselves backward as they pull their opponents with them. On the bike at TDC the cleat replaces the need for a downward force, so all concentration can be given to the forward force until about 2 o'c where the natural downward force takes over. Perfecting the technique involves attempting to start the forward force earlier and earlier until you get a simultaneous switchover of power application from one leg to the other when cranks are in the 11/5 position.
backdoor
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Posts: 407
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

### Re: Re:

backdoor wrote:
I already said this technique can be used in a leaning forward position same as on a bike. At TDC it's a forward force not a downward force which can be counteracted by the arms making it even more effective. On the mat they have to produce two forces, sufficient downward force with their bodyweight to prevent sliding on the mat and a powerful forward force to drive themselves backward as they pull their opponents with them. On the bike at TDC the cleat replaces the need for a downward force, so all concentration can be given to the forward force until about 2 o'c where the natural downward force takes over. Perfecting the technique involves attempting to start the forward force earlier and earlier until you get a simultaneous switchover of power application from one leg to the other when cranks are in the 11/5 position.

Just because you say something doesn’t make it correct. Please explain what muscles are used to create a forward force at TDC.
JamesCun
Junior Member

Posts: 262
Joined: 01 Jun 2014 12:42

### Re: Re:

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
I already said this technique can be used in a leaning forward position same as on a bike. At TDC it's a forward force not a downward force which can be counteracted by the arms making it even more effective. On the mat they have to produce two forces, sufficient downward force with their bodyweight to prevent sliding on the mat and a powerful forward force to drive themselves backward as they pull their opponents with them. On the bike at TDC the cleat replaces the need for a downward force, so all concentration can be given to the forward force until about 2 o'c where the natural downward force takes over. Perfecting the technique involves attempting to start the forward force earlier and earlier until you get a simultaneous switchover of power application from one leg to the other when cranks are in the 11/5 position.

Please explain what muscles are used to create a forward force at TDC.

That is impossible because it's almost all muscles from hip to ball of foot.
backdoor
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Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

Noel, do you even ride a bike? Those of us who do have tried this and it is neither effective (more power) or more efficient (less O2 cost for a given power). These things are easily measured.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
CoachFergie
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Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

### Re: Re:

CoachFergie wrote:[quote="backdoor

The researcher was not convinced, he intends to continue searching for the optimum non round chainring.

The bat shiz crazy person looks at the opinion of the researcher. High Performance Coaches and Sport Scientists look at the data.[/quote]

Do you realize you could have insulted researchers with those statements. For your information your data could be considered flawed because they were all pedalling natural style not non round ring style.
backdoor
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Posts: 407
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

What might actually be interesting is to do cycle testing of experienced t-o-w athletes.
I'd suggest having them use whatever cycling technique feels most natural for them, and to compare their 'force vector' data with that from both 'recreational', and 'competitive' cyclists.
Perhaps instructing them that the goal of the test session was for them to produce their maximum power (in watt-hours, or calories) for a duration of 10 minutes. If the t-o-w specialists have trained to develop and utilize their leg/hip muscles in a way that is significantly different than that of cyclists, then the force vectors should show that.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
JayKosta
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### Re:

CoachFergie wrote:
Those of us who do have tried this and it is neither effective (more power) or more efficient (less O2 cost for a given power). These things are easily measured.

Impossible, first you need the special bike set up and then the technique.
backdoor
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Posts: 407
Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

### Re:

JayKosta wrote:What might actually be interesting is to do cycle testing of experienced t-o-w athletes.
I'd suggest having them use whatever cycling technique feels most natural for them, and to compare their 'force vector' data with that from both 'recreational', and 'competitive' cyclists.
Perhaps instructing them that the goal of the test session was for them to produce their maximum power (in watt-hours, or calories) for a duration of 10 minutes. If the t-o-w specialists have trained to develop and utilize their leg/hip muscles in a way that is significantly different than that of cyclists, then the force vectors should show that.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

If you were asked to pedal on your bike using only a forward force around TDC, how would you apply it ?
backdoor
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Joined: 04 Jun 2015 12:55

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