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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

05 Oct 2018 20:51

PhitBoy wrote:Okay, I think I see what you're getting at: Different techniques might produce different kineamtics which would change muscle length trajectories thereby facilitating a different approach to power production. Is that it?
While the theory is plausible, the actual possible changes are quite small.


Yes that's it. What actual possible changes are you referring to, power production or hip and knee joint actions ?

" Thus, during maximal cycling, humans maximize muscle power at the hip and knee, "
What is meant by maximizing muscle power at the knee ?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

05 Oct 2018 23:19

backdoor wrote:What is meant by maximizing muscle power at the knee ?

Its all laid out clearly in the paper, which you have not requested. Happy to send it to you so you can read it for yourself. What is your email address?
Cheers,
Jim
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Re: Re:

06 Oct 2018 12:42

PhitBoy wrote:Okay, I think I see what you're getting at: Different techniques might produce different kineamtics which would change muscle length trajectories thereby facilitating a different approach to power production. Is that it? ...

------------------------------
note - my understanding is that the 'goal' of the paper is to show that simulated work loops can provide an accurate description of actual muscle usage. The 'model' used for comparison was the actual muscles typically used in a high intensity / short duration sprint, and that was the muscle usage used as input for simulation.

For the purpose of 'investigating alternative pedaling technique' (which I realize was NOT the purpose of the paper), it would be interesting to use the stimulated work loop tool to maximize power output by CAREFULLY CHOOSING when the various muscles are activated (and de-activated), and also the ankle angle. Perhaps other angles might be involved if Noel could specify whatever changes in seat position would be needed.

A concern about practical cycling muscle usage is that the paper was concerned with very short duration and extremely high power output - e.g. a several seconds sprint, and not a TT.

Jay
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06 Oct 2018 19:27

Why are we labouring under the false notion that we are force limited when pedalling during a TT effort, such that adding some magical extra force vector via some mythical pedalling technique is the answer?

That's not the limiter to TT power output. Ability to generate/regenerate a supply of ATP is the limiter. There's no free lunch.
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Re:

06 Oct 2018 21:29

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:...
That's not the limiter to TT power output. Ability to generate/regenerate a supply of ATP is the limiter. There's no free lunch.

-----------------
I agree! The 'pedaling technique' issue is about how to maximize the net power that can be generated (possibly along with aerodynamic concerns) with the amount of ATP that is available.

A 'big question' is whether the conventional pedaling style makes best use of the muscles and ATP. Perhaps someone can do a thoughtful examination of the 'muscle usage' details in the paper and see an opportunity to STOP using muscles when they don't produce a worthwhile amount of power for their ATP consumption, and to START using muscles (and joint angles) that would be more effective in power production. It would be a big advance if the 'simulated work loops' modeling can be used proactively to suggest / recommend ways in which the muscles can be used to produce better results.

Jay
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07 Oct 2018 21:14

Did you not read what Jim already said about that? The answer is SFA above what people naturally do.
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Re:

07 Oct 2018 22:28

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Did you not read what Jim already said about that? The answer is SFA above what people naturally do.

------------------------------
Please enlighten me - I don't understand what you mean.

Jay
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Re: Re:

08 Oct 2018 05:01

JayKosta wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Did you not read what Jim already said about that? The answer is SFA above what people naturally do.

------------------------------
Please enlighten me - I don't understand what you mean.

Jay

Jim already answered the question, i.e. there is extremely limited scope, if any, for such additional power production, and the research demonstrates this.

If anyone doesn't accept the research, then it's up to them to provide countering evidence. Real evidence. Not fantasy thought bubbles about some mythical and unmeasured pedalling technique of a long dead cyclist.
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Re: Re:

08 Oct 2018 09:49

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Did you not read what Jim already said about that? The answer is SFA above what people naturally do.

------------------------------
Please enlighten me - I don't understand what you mean.

Jay

Jim already answered the question, i.e. there is extremely limited scope, if any, for such additional power production, and the research demonstrates this.

If anyone doesn't accept the research, then it's up to them to provide countering evidence. Real evidence. Not fantasy thought bubbles about some mythical and unmeasured pedalling technique of a long dead cyclist.


At what age do cyclists develop and perfect their natural pedalling technique, what is their objective at that time, how does their saddle and handlebar height settings compare with a road racer's setting ?
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Re: Re:

08 Oct 2018 13:15

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:...
Jim already answered the question, i.e. there is extremely limited scope, if any, for such additional power production, and the research demonstrates this.
...

--------------------------------
My point is that with a reliable simulation tool, there is a better opportunity to SEARCH for possible improvements. And doing a 'search' is not part of a typical research project. The research that I've seen has mostly been concerned about -
1) giving a more detailed understanding about 'what is happening'.
2) comparing a few well-defined alternatives.

A simulation tool provides the opportunity for 'entrepreneurs' to investigate a wider range of alternatives.

Existing research on 'changes to pedaling technique' have been dependent on testers being willing to try unfamiliar (and perhaps difficult to master) techniques in a limited time period. If (and it's a big IF) JA did use an unconventional technique, then perhaps the comments about him needing intense concentration to perform the technique are valid and indicate that the technique was not 'natural', but required a large amount of intentional muscle activation/de-activation to master.

Jay
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Re: Re:

08 Oct 2018 19:20

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Did you not read what Jim already said about that? The answer is SFA above what people naturally do.

------------------------------
Please enlighten me - I don't understand what you mean.

Jay

Jim already answered the question, i.e. there is extremely limited scope, if any, for such additional power production, and the research demonstrates this.

If anyone doesn't accept the research, then it's up to them to provide countering evidence. Real evidence. Not fantasy thought bubbles about some mythical and unmeasured pedalling technique of a long dead cyclist.


At what age do cyclists develop and perfect their natural pedalling technique, what is their objective at that time, how does their saddle and handlebar height settings compare with a road racer's setting ?

More obfuscation Noel.

Just provide some data.
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Re: Re:

08 Oct 2018 19:26

JayKosta wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:...
Jim already answered the question, i.e. there is extremely limited scope, if any, for such additional power production, and the research demonstrates this.
...

--------------------------------
My point is that with a reliable simulation tool, there is a better opportunity to SEARCH for possible improvements. And doing a 'search' is not part of a typical research project. The research that I've seen has mostly been concerned about -
1) giving a more detailed understanding about 'what is happening'.
2) comparing a few well-defined alternatives.

A simulation tool provides the opportunity for 'entrepreneurs' to investigate a wider range of alternatives.

Existing research on 'changes to pedaling technique' have been dependent on testers being willing to try unfamiliar (and perhaps difficult to master) techniques in a limited time period. If (and it's a big IF) JA did use an unconventional technique, then perhaps the comments about him needing intense concentration to perform the technique are valid and indicate that the technique was not 'natural', but required a large amount of intentional muscle activation/de-activation to master.

Jay

You clearly haven't read what Jim wrote about the scope for any such alternatives to increase power output.

All we ask for is some data to at least demonstrate such potential exists. Yet no one has been able to do so even though the means to provide such evidence is rather straightforward. Instead all we get is fantasy.
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Re: Re:

08 Oct 2018 20:25

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:You clearly haven't read what Jim wrote about the scope for any such alternatives to increase power output.

All we ask for is some data to at least demonstrate such potential exists. Yet no one has been able to do so even though the means to provide such evidence is rather straightforward. Instead all we get is fantasy.

----------------------------------------------
Perhaps I haven't read what you have in mind (or maybe I just forgot it), But regardless, thoughtful use of simulation tools could be a good way to "demonstrate such potential exists" (or give more indications that there are not).

The paper about 'simulated work loops' does show that simulation can provide a good indicator of actual muscle/joint usage. The next step is to use simulation for investigation about things that are difficult to do via use of test subjects.

Jay
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08 Oct 2018 22:05

Knock yourself out. Let me know when you actually find something (pedalling "technique" wise) that can be proven to increase sustainable power output.
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08 Oct 2018 22:08

Noel keeps saying he already knows what it is. So why doesn't he provide some evidence? It's not asking for much to provide some actual data. yet none is forthcoming, nor will it ever be. Why not? Because it's A-grade horseshit, that's why.
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Re: Re:

09 Oct 2018 00:12

JayKosta wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:Okay, I think I see what you're getting at: Different techniques might produce different kineamtics which would change muscle length trajectories thereby facilitating a different approach to power production. Is that it? ...

------------------------------
note - my understanding is that the 'goal' of the paper is to show that simulated work loops can provide an accurate description of actual muscle usage. The 'model' used for comparison was the actual muscles typically used in a high intensity / short duration sprint, and that was the muscle usage used as input for simulation.

For the purpose of 'investigating alternative pedaling technique' (which I realize was NOT the purpose of the paper), it would be interesting to use the stimulated work loop tool to maximize power output by CAREFULLY CHOOSING when the various muscles are activated (and de-activated), and also the ankle angle. Perhaps other angles might be involved if Noel could specify whatever changes in seat position would be needed.
Jay


All Jim has to do in his lab is sit in an office chair fitted with casters, without arm rests, then pressing down with his hands on the front portion of the sides of the seat, with heel raised on a non slip surface, force that chair backwards (single leg action. That is the basic technique and it's when this forward force is applied to a fast moving pedal that you get the perfect TT technique. It will demonstrate how the powerful calf muscles, ankle and plantar flexion can be put to work in pedalling around TDC, and is very different from the kicking action recommended by the experts. As for bike set-up, the bars need to be in a position that would leave your arm resistance line roughly parallel to that forward force application line between 1 and 1.30 when in the drops position. On my trainer bike I use cut down and rejoined normal bars instead of the Scott Rake aero bars. A model for the work loop tool.
Last edited by backdoor on 10 Oct 2018 23:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

09 Oct 2018 07:39

backdoor wrote:All Jim has to do <insert twaddle>

All Noel has to do is provide us with some data...
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Re: Re:

09 Oct 2018 12:30

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
PhitBoy wrote:Okay, I think I see what you're getting at: Different techniques might produce different kineamtics which would change muscle length trajectories thereby facilitating a different approach to power production. Is that it? ...

------------------------------
note - my understanding is that the 'goal' of the paper is to show that simulated work loops can provide an accurate description of actual muscle usage. The 'model' used for comparison was the actual muscles typically used in a high intensity / short duration sprint, and that was the muscle usage used as input for simulation.

For the purpose of 'investigating alternative pedaling technique' (which I realize was NOT the purpose of the paper), it would be interesting to use the stimulated work loop tool to maximize power output by CAREFULLY CHOOSING when the various muscles are activated (and de-activated), and also the ankle angle. Perhaps other angles might be involved if Noel could specify whatever changes in seat position would be needed.
Jay


All Jim has to do in his lab is get an office chair fitted with casters, without arm rests, then pressing down with his hands on the front portion of the sides of the seat, with heel raised on a non slip surface, force that chair backwards (single leg action. That is the basic technique and it's when this forward force is applied to a fast moving pedal that you get the perfect TT technique. It will demonstrate how the powerful calf muscles, ankle and plantar flexion can be put to work in pedalling around TDC, and is very different from the kicking action recommended by the experts. As for bike set-up, the bars need to be in a position that would leave your arm resistance line roughly parallel to that forward force application line between 1 and 1.30 when in the drops position. On my trainer bike I use cut down and rejoined normal bars instead of the Scott Rake aero bars. A model for the work loop tool.

Cool. It is pretty easy to provide us a picture of your trainer bike with you riding. Awesome!
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09 Oct 2018 19:27

The irony of course is Jim invented a bicycle in a desk...
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Re:

10 Oct 2018 22:42

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Why are we labouring under the false notion that we are force limited when pedalling during a TT effort, such that adding some magical extra force vector via some mythical pedalling technique is the answer?

That's not the limiter to TT power output. Ability to generate/regenerate a supply of ATP is the limiter. There's no free lunch.


This from a man who broke the world hour record. (but could only use his own special kicking forward technique around TDC ).

"You would be forgiven for thinking that pedalling is such a simple act that the efficiency of it is what it is and there is not much we can do about it. That is not the case and quite often the divide that separates equally talented opponents is not who can produce the most amount of energy, but who can waste the least. The entire quest in looking at the pedalling action and retraining our technique is to have the largest proportion of our precious energy as possible go into producing movement."
" In swimming, a poor technique would be instantly noticeable and correctable to the trained eye, and more to the point, the swimmer would be eager to improve technically since success would be impossible otherwise. The majority of cyclists on the other hand learn to ride a bike as children and don't think about the detail of the pedal action at any point. Where it is an absolute priority in swimming to improve technically at all levels of the sport, this has not been the case in the world of cycling. Even at elite level it has been quite rare to investigate the entire pedal action to the degree that a swimmer will eagerly pursue every possibility of improvement. This problem apart from first having to convince the rider that it is essential, is that the entrenched habitual pedalling signals from the brain have to be untrained while a new set of impulses are learned. If you open your mind to learn a more complex sequence of muscle stimuli that will produce more movement, less heat and less muscle strain, then you open yourself up to the possibility of a considerable improvement in performance. The first thing you need to know is the basic physics involved in the transfer of energy. Almost everything in cycling can be explained by physiology and physics and it is important to get a handle on the basic principles. The governing factor on how fast you can go is not strength or how much force can be brought down on the pedals - it is energy.
The pedal is the object being moved in a circular direction. The amount of energy transferred to it is simply the amount of force applied to it multiplied by the distance travelled. It is slightly more complicated than that because it is the force pushing the pedal forward that counts. What this means is that a smaller force applied to the pedal in a forward motion for a greater distance travelled can produce more energy than a large force for a shorter distance. In other words a rider with weaker muscles in terms of absolute strength can produce more power and more speed than a stronger rider if he uses more of the pedalling circle more effectively. By effectively I mean by applying a force as near to the forward motion as possible."
Last edited by backdoor on 11 Oct 2018 06:43, edited 1 time in total.
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