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The Powermeter Thread

Moderator: Tonton

08 Jan 2015 17:25

JayKosta wrote:========================
For WHO ?

Yes, Frank Day does occasionally mention his PowerCrank product, but usually in a context that goes along with the main item being discussed in the thread.

The 'trouble' mostly comes when another participant goes 'off thread' for the sole purpose of disparaging Frank or PCs - and that type of trolling should get the attention of a moderator.
Please LOOK to see who is really causing the problems....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Seriously?

But, if you look top right you have the right to complain about any post or poster.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
User avatar CoachFergie
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08 Jan 2015 17:50

JayKosta wrote:========================
For WHO ?

Yes, Frank Day does occasionally mention his PowerCrank product, but usually in a context that goes along with the main item being discussed in the thread.

The 'trouble' mostly comes when another participant goes 'off thread' for the sole purpose of disparaging Frank or PCs - and that type of trolling should get the attention of a moderator.
Please LOOK to see who is really causing the problems....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Review the thread and see in the recent string the first to mention PC. You will find it was Frank, in an attempt to distract the discussion to his product and the claims people make against it.
JamesCun
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08 Jan 2015 18:22

JayKosta wrote:========================
For WHO ?

Yes, Frank Day does occasionally mention his PowerCrank product, but usually in a context that goes along with the main item being discussed in the thread.

The 'trouble' mostly comes when another participant goes 'off thread' for the sole purpose of disparaging Frank or PCs - and that type of trolling should get the attention of a moderator.
Please LOOK to see who is really causing the problems....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Jay, other than mentioning PCs in the PM thread and going off-topic, the main reason Frank is trolling is because he keeps stating that PMs have not been shown to result in significant improvements in performance. Everyone other than Frank know that a PM is just a measuring device and as a measuring device it cannot improve performance. Frank has done this continually and has been warned continually by the administrators to stop this trolling.

I have not followed this latest barrage of Frank's trolling arguments too closely, but JamesCun seems to have been respectful and not disparaging. In the past, the main Frank-antagonists have been people like me, Coach Fergie, SciGuy and acoggan, and none of us have been involved in Frank's latest trolling efforts. So, politely and respectfully, perhaps you should be less disparaging when casting those stones.
"If you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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08 Jan 2015 18:35

JamesCun wrote:Review the thread and see in the recent string the first to mention PC. You will find it was Frank, in an attempt to distract the discussion to his product and the claims people make against it.

Really? I went back and looked and the first mention I saw was in posts 1218 and 1220 made by you. Perhaps you could point me to what you were referring.
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
FrankDay
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08 Jan 2015 18:45

elapid wrote:Jay, other than mentioning PCs in the PM thread and going off-topic, the main reason Frank is trolling is because he keeps stating that PMs have not been shown to result in significant improvements in performance. Everyone other than Frank know that a PM is just a measuring device and as a measuring device it cannot improve performance. Frank has done this continually and has been warned continually by the administrators to stop this trolling.
I simply don't understand why in a thread devoted to power meters it is "trolling" to simply ask what the benefit to the rider is to use one? So it measures something, how does that help my racing? It is commonly believed and touted that a power meter is the best device to use to help one to get better. Where is the evidence to support that belief? Why should anyone pluck down $1000 or more to get one? These are reasonable questions to discuss on a thread devoted to power meters. You (and others) consider such questions trolling because you do not have an answer and it goes against your belief that it is a useful tool but you have no evidence to support that belief. It is like a religion, you gotta have faith because there is no evidence to support the belief. But, if anyone questions the belief then they attack the religion.
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
FrankDay
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08 Jan 2015 19:10

FrankDay wrote:Really? I went back and looked and the first mention I saw was in posts 1218 and 1220 made by you. Perhaps you could point me to what you were referring.


#1206

"...(or so I have been told since the last 4 Olympic RR champions have all trained on PowerCranks - every one since we started selling them - and many have told me this means nothing)..."

Also #1212 with a cryptic reference that you know everyone could draw the name of your product in place of 'I know of one'
JamesCun
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08 Jan 2015 19:23

If anyone has a problem with a post derailing the thread, from either side of this discussion, report it. What the thread does not need is filling up with discussions that have no place here, no matter who started it. It takes two to tango.

A simple, "we can't discuss this here, lets go to the POWERCRANK thread" is all that's needed. Then the rest can get on with the actual discussion.
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08 Jan 2015 21:20

JamesCun wrote:#1206

"...(or so I have been told since the last 4 Olympic RR champions have all trained on PowerCranks - every one since we started selling them - and many have told me this means nothing)..."

Also #1212 with a cryptic reference that you know everyone could draw the name of your product in place of 'I know of one'
You seemed to have missed the point of the post. Here is what I posted in its entirety
The fly in the ointment of your argument is that 1 of 7 who didn't have a PM. Unless all of those behind him also didn't have PM's (were they outlawed that year?) one would have to question exactly how important having one is to racing? Just because a rider uses something or has something on their bike isn't particularly good evidence that something is effective (or so I have been told since the last 4 Olympic RR champions have all trained on PowerCranks - every one since we started selling them - and many have told me this means nothing). There simply is no scientific evidence that having a PM or using a PM in any way actually results in a better performance than what can be done without one regardless of what "everyone" thinks should be the case. It may be true but there is zero evidence to prove that contention and if it is true the effect must be small. And, as suggested by the video posted having one might actually increase risk to the rider.
I have bolded what seemed to have eluded you, the fact that you seemed to be suggesting that because a lot of winners use a device you believe in suggests something significant regarding the usefulness of the device really has no logic behind it because same type of example has no relevance to you when it comes to PowerCranks, a device you do not believe in. My example was simply to point out your hypocrisy and faulty logic.

If one wants to say that a power meter makes cycling more fun or interesting to me I guess that is fine. But, if one is a competitor is that what they are really looking for? Implying that a power meter makes one more competitive (I doubt all those WC winners have them on their bikes because they find it makes cycling more fun and interesting), then where is the data supporting that contention. The fact that a lot of people but not all use the device (either in training or races) but not all use it then if it actually does something then one should see increased number of winners from what would be expected based on the participation numbers. Why you thought an 85% win rate for a device that has a much greater than 85% participation rate means anything (other than, perhaps, using the device hurts performance) is beyond me when you believe my pointing out a 100% win rate for a device that has a much less than 100% participation rate means nothing. If one wants to make a point examples are useful, which you tried to do. You just opened yourself up to the example I used to counter your argument. My purpose was to point out the flaw in your logic by way of another example. I could have used any example if I had known of another, but I did not.
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
FrankDay
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08 Jan 2015 21:29

King Boonen wrote:If anyone has a problem with a post derailing the thread, from either side of this discussion, report it. What the thread does not need is filling up with discussions that have no place here, no matter who started it. It takes two to tango.

A simple, "we can't discuss this here, lets go to the POWERCRANK thread" is all that's needed. Then the rest can get on with the actual discussion.

You know, I have tried many times to report posts that were completely off topic, libelous towards me and my product, involved personal attacks towards me without any effect whatsoever. Occasionally moderators have participated in these posts.

As a result I have been forced to answer such posts because, choosing not to sue, failing to address such posts implies there is some truth to them.

You folks do an awful job of moderating threads in which I participate because invariably if I say something that any of the known suspects disagree it devolves to personal attacks and PowerCranks come up. In this thread I simply ask for evidence for the competitive utility of the device and I am attacked as being a troll. It is all they got to answer the question.
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
FrankDay
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08 Jan 2015 21:35

Let's take this to the PC thread if you wish to learn why you logic is flawed.
JamesCun
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08 Jan 2015 22:10

JamesCun wrote:Let's take this to the PC thread if you wish to learn why you logic is flawed.
Why? We are discussing power meters and the logic behind assessing their utility or not. Of course, you are welcome to go there and post if you want but discussing your criticism of the logic I used on this thread on the PC thread would be off topic don't you think?
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
FrankDay
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08 Jan 2015 23:47

FrankDay wrote:I simply don't understand why in a thread devoted to power meters it is "trolling" to simply ask what the benefit to the rider is to use one? So it measures something, how does that help my racing? It is commonly believed and touted that a power meter is the best device to use to help one to get better. Where is the evidence to support that belief? Why should anyone pluck down $1000 or more to get one? These are reasonable questions to discuss on a thread devoted to power meters. You (and others) consider such questions trolling because you do not have an answer and it goes against your belief that it is a useful tool but you have no evidence to support that belief. It is like a religion, you gotta have faith because there is no evidence to support the belief. But, if anyone questions the belief then they attack the religion.


Frank, it is trolling because you want PMs to be something other than a measuring device and you have been warned repeatedly that trying to make it something other than a measuring device is trying to incite a response and is hence trolling. We have gone over the benefits of PMs compared to other measuring devices (HRMs, etc) ad nauseum earlier in this thread. Other than this single response to you, I am not going to pander to your trolling, direct you to post numbers, and/or rehash old and settled arguments. Please just stop trolling with every new member who shows an interest in this thread.
"If you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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08 Jan 2015 23:52

CoachFergie wrote:Yes don't feed the troll. As I said all roads lead to his product.

Please, back to discussing the measurement tool, known as the power meter!


What's wrong with anyone making negative comments on power meters, for years you continued to make negative comments on many forums about pedalling technique, a topic in which you never had the slightest interest.
coapman
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08 Jan 2015 23:57

coapman wrote:What's wrong with anyone making negative comments on power meters, for years you continued to make negative comments on many forums about pedalling technique, a topic in which you never had the slightest interest.


There is a forum for that topic...
JamesCun
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09 Jan 2015 00:05

JamesCun wrote:There is a forum for that topic...



There is, it's called the Powermeter Thread.
coapman
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09 Jan 2015 00:33

coapman wrote:What's wrong with anyone making negative comments on power meters, for years you continued to make negative comments on many forums about pedalling technique, a topic in which you never had the slightest interest.


It is fine to make negative remarks about PM's if you like. The problem what their purpose is, is misrepreseted by Frank every time. It is a measuring tool.
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09 Jan 2015 01:08

veganrob wrote:. The problem what their purpose is, is misrepreseted by Frank every time.


You are right, it is. Powermeterism is a lucrative business for both manufacturers and coaches who brainwash the suckers into buying them
coapman
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09 Jan 2015 01:13

FrankDay wrote:I simply don't understand why in a thread devoted to power meters it is "trolling" to simply ask what the benefit to the rider is to use one? So it measures something, how does that help my racing?...


elapid wrote:...Everyone other than Frank know that a PM is just a measuring device and as a measuring device it cannot improve performance....


elapid wrote:...it is trolling because you want PMs to be something other than a measuring device...


veganrob wrote:...The problem what their purpose is, is misrepreseted by Frank every time. It is a measuring tool.


Please move on from this line of discussion, and get back to the actual topic of this thread, namely the science and practice behind Power Meters

CoachFergie wrote:..I thought I would start a power meter thread to discuss the science and practice behind this [color="Red"]measurement tool[/color]...Now just because I trained with two power meters today I didn't go twice as fast:D
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09 Jan 2015 02:38

sittingbison wrote:Please move on from this line of discussion, and get back to the actual topic of this thread, namely the science and practice behind Power Meters
That is all a cop out. Everyone knows that a power meter is generally considered an important and useful tool to help the rider improve. Anyhow, show me one post related to the science of this tool that goes to the benefit of having one. Show me one post that goes to the practice of using this measurement tool that doesn't imply a benefit to the rider of using one.

Of course a power meter is a measurement tool but the question remains as to what possible benefit is it to the rider to actually measure what their power is? Does knowing the power change it or allow the rider to improve it beyond what they can do without one? (Wait, according to Heisenberg and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle just measuring the power changes it, so I guess that is true (but is it changed up or down?), but not in the way that most think that it does.) If there is not even a presumed or theoretical benefit to using one, what could one possibly discuss regarding the "practice" of using one? So you put it on your bike and get a number but once you have that number what do you do with it and why?

So, I think it is clear, my posts are about the only ones here that are uniformly consistent in trying to stay with the SCIENCE and PRACTICE (and the SCIENCE of the PRACTICE) of power meters. It is clear to me that there is none, at least for now as it goes towards making cyclists faster.

If there is no theoretical reason to use one to help the rider get faster why do some seem to get their panties in a bunch just because I point out there is no scientific support, as of yet, for the devices use for that purpose. Why do people want to discuss it at all if there is no theoretical reason for using it?

Edit: I would also like to point out that the stop watch and the scale are also simple measuring tools but I can tell you how to use them to help a cyclist get faster. Why do you all seem to want to deny that a power meter couldn't also be used in a similar fashion? Of course it can. The real question is not whether it can be used for such a purpose but is it any better or is there any advantage to using one?
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
FrankDay
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09 Jan 2015 02:47

veganrob wrote:It is fine to make negative remarks about PM's if you like. The problem what their purpose is, is misrepreseted by Frank every time. It is a measuring tool.
Staying with the "practice" of the PM, what is the purpose of doing the measuring? Why do it? If runners (or almost any other athlete I can think of) don't need to measure power why do cyclists?
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
FrankDay
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