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A new theory concerning the significance of pedalling style.

Moderator: King Boonen

12 Sep 2013 05:06

Frank Day: behind the times since....

http://chrisfroomelookingatstems.tumblr.com/

Not submitted as evidence of anything either. Nearly as amusing as your attempts to market a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
Hamish Ferguson
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12 Sep 2013 08:25

FrankDay wrote:I just want to emphasize that these are all opinions. In fact, almost everything that we believe about cycling training and racing is opinion with very little science to back any of it up. There are whole forums devoted to the power meter and there isn't a scintilla of scientific evidence that using one makes even the smallest of difference. That doesn't keep people from getting their panties in a bunch anytime anyone comes and posts something that is a bit off of the accepted norm. Especially if they don't cave to the usual ad hominem attacks that are guaranteed to follow from the usual suspects. Takes a thick skin to be an internet contrarian.

Anyhow, pretty much every study that has looked at pedaling technique has shown, on average, that even the pros apply back pressure on the upstroke even when attached to the pedals. This pattern can hardly be significantly different than when they are using platform pedals. Of course there are exceptions but in the big picture the exceptions are rare. Less rare than they used to be now that there are reasonably large numbers of pros who have trained on those dratted independent cranks but still rare, I am afraid, since our penetration into the cycling market remains tiny.



Frank,

Yes it does take a thick skin to be an internet contrarian.

I get called a troll and many other names because I refuse to stop expressing my opinions.

I do not agree with your views on pedalling technique but I will be the first congratulate you if you proven to be right.

People are entitled to express their opinions. Those who do not agree should not resort to name calling or trying to undermine the person instead of their arguments.

Trev.
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12 Sep 2013 11:08

FrankDay wrote:
So, as regards pedaling, I accept that most people are pretty good doing the technique they are doing, the technique they have been using since they were 3. However, there is zero evidence that the technique they are using is the optimum pedaling technique if one wants to optimize power or efficiency. I submit there is a better technique than what most people are doing and changing isn't easy. Actually, it is easy in the sense that 99% of the people can do what is necessary withing 10 minutes of receiving the proper instruction (getting on a pair of PowerCranks) but that doesn't make them an expert in this new technique in the sense that they can't do it without the feedback and they can't do it for hours and/or when they are tired. It takes a hundred hours or so to get "good" and thousands to become expert, IMHO.



The important questions to be answered is how does the pedaling of a circular expert differ from that of a PC expert. Research has already proved that circular is not as effective as mashing, so where does the PC'er find that 40% of extra power over that of a circular pedaling expert.
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12 Sep 2013 11:26

coapman wrote:The important questions to be answered is how does the pedaling of a circular expert differ from that of a PC expert. Research has already proved that circular is not as effective as mashing, so where does the PC'er find that 40% of extra power over that of a circular pedaling expert.


No the 40% improvement kicks in when you complete 10,000 hours of training. Convenient aye! Some wiggle room if a user doesn't see any improvement:D
Hamish Ferguson
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12 Sep 2013 11:31

coapman wrote:This means he can almost double his power output from each pedal stroke without increasing peak torque, and there you have the ideal technique for sustainable max power output in time trials.


Care to provide some evidence for this beyond what you think you see watching videos of Jacques Anquetil?
Hamish Ferguson
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12 Sep 2013 12:04

CoachFergie wrote:Care to provide some evidence for this beyond what you think you see watching videos of Jacques Anquetil?



Unlike Frank I have explained where this extra maximal torque is applied (between 11 and 2 o'c) and also how exactly this extra power is generated and applied through the cleats to the pedals. You will learn nothing from Anq. videos, except that it was impossible for him to perfect the new technique that he had discovered.
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12 Sep 2013 12:05

So nothing. Cheers:confused:
Hamish Ferguson
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12 Sep 2013 12:25

CoachFergie wrote:So nothing. Cheers:confused:


Still waiting on BrimBros to perfect their PM, if that fails a free demonstration and detailed explanation will always be available to anyone who is seriously interested in the search for the perfect pedaling style.
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12 Sep 2013 12:30

Or you could take up offers by Ric Stern or Dr Jim Martin to use the force measuring pedals in various labs seeing the technology to test your theory has been around for 40 years.

But it is cute that Frank has his new 10,000 hour dodge and you have the never ending delay's from Brim Brothers to hide behind.
Hamish Ferguson
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12 Sep 2013 14:15

coapman wrote:The important questions to be answered is how does the pedaling of a circular expert differ from that of a PC expert. Research has already proved that circular is not as effective as mashing, so where does the PC'er find that 40% of extra power over that of a circular pedaling expert.
Research has shown no such thing. As the latest study from Hug points out: asking someone to do pedal in a certain way and training them to do it give two different results.

Anyhow, the 40% improvement comes from many small improvements added up around the entire circle that come from both using more muscles and using those muscles in a more effective coordination pattern.

Hug has contacted me and it sounds like he is interested in pursuing his research further and answering some of these questions. We will see.
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
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12 Sep 2013 14:20

CoachFergie wrote:No the 40% improvement kicks in when you complete 10,000 hours of training. Convenient aye! Some wiggle room if a user doesn't see any improvement:D
No, the 40% improvement (on average) is seen after 6-9 months of "exclusive use" of the product in training. At 10 hours a week (probably typical for our customers) that would only be 250-350 hours. Enough to make them "good" at it but still far from expert. There is still a lot of fine-tuning that can be done but we would expect further demonstrable improvements to be much smaller (except in the endurance area).
Life is short, both reading my posts and training with PowerCranks will make it seem longer
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12 Sep 2013 19:01

FrankDay wrote:No, the 40% improvement (on average) is seen after 6-9 months of "exclusive use" of the product in training. At 10 hours a week (probably typical for our customers) that would only be 250-350 hours. Enough to make them "good" at it but still far from expert. There is still a lot of fine-tuning that can be done but we would expect further demonstrable improvements to be much smaller (except in the endurance area).


Still 250 - 350 hour of training a movement pattern that is not used in competition so still a waste of time and energy. All the cool kids know that specificity is where it's at.
Hamish Ferguson
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12 Sep 2013 21:57

CoachFergie wrote:
Bata Bikers! Are they any relation to Bata Bullets???

Bata Biker was a fredly bike shoe from the 70s that had a close fit and a stiff, low-profile, sticky sole, just right for using toeclips without the cleats.
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13 Sep 2013 16:05

coapman wrote: But in cycling the situation is very different, a cyclist is applying his force to a rotating pedal/crank and this makes it possible to apply an equally powerful forward and downward force and extend that optimal 60 deg. (2-4 o'c) sector to almost 150 deg.. This means he can almost double his power output from each pedal stroke without increasing peak torque, and there you have the ideal technique for sustainable max power output in time trials.




There you have it CoachFergie, it's "almost double" which means maybe you need a visit to an optician before attending to your lack of pedalling knowledge.
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13 Sep 2013 17:54

coapman wrote:There you have it CoachFergie, it's "almost double" which means maybe you need a visit to an optician before attending to your lack of pedalling knowledge.


So easily testable with any power meter. Stop hiding behind lame excuses.
Hamish Ferguson
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15 Sep 2013 21:31

FrankDay wrote:Research has shown no such thing. As the latest study from Hug points out: asking someone to do pedal in a certain way and training them to do it give two different results.

Anyhow, the 40% improvement comes from many small improvements added up around the entire circle that come from both using more muscles and using those muscles in a more effective coordination pattern.

Hug has contacted me and it sounds like he is interested in pursuing his research further and answering some of these questions. We will see.



What in your opinion would be the most reliable way to compare circular and mashing for effectiveness in time trials? How many riders have perfected both techniques? Maybe Hug could start with that.
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15 Sep 2013 21:34

coapman wrote:What in your opinion would be the most reliable way to compare circular and mashing for effectiveness in time trials? How many riders have perfected both techniques? Maybe Hug could start with that.


You mean like Coyle did in 1991?
Hamish Ferguson
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15 Sep 2013 21:46

CoachFergie wrote:You mean like Coyle did in 1991?




You mean this man :http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/09/coyle-and-armstrong-research-errors.html
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15 Sep 2013 21:48

Is 2008 the new 1991?
Hamish Ferguson
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16 Sep 2013 09:35

CoachFergie wrote:Is 2008 the new 1991?



It's a case of " blotting your copybook ".
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