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Upper-body training for cyclists

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Re:

12 Jun 2016 13:34

LaFlorecita wrote:The official Movistar website has Quintana at 58kg. But I'm sure you know better.

Movistar surely knows Quintana's weight better than Ryo, but that doesn't mean they're going to list that in their website. Real in-form weights are top-secret stuff.
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 14:08

hrotha wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:The official Movistar website has Quintana at 58kg. But I'm sure you know better.

Movistar surely knows Quintana's weight better than Ryo, but that doesn't mean they're going to list that in their website. Real in-form weights are top-secret stuff.

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12 Jun 2016 14:20

If you think that's conspiracy theory material, I have no words.
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 16:49

LaFlorecita wrote:The exception proves the rule.

In what way was Evans winning the 2011 Tour an exception?

It's not like Cadel was a once-in-a-generation talent who could overcome the alleged weight disadvantage through sheer class. It's not like the 2011 Tour was strongly ITT-biased like 2012 either.
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 17:31

CheckMyPecs wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:The exception proves the rule.

In what way was Evans winning the 2011 Tour an exception?

It's not like Cadel was a once-in-a-generation talent who could overcome the alleged weight disadvantage through sheer class. It's not like the 2011 Tour was strongly ITT-biased like 2012 either.

He is an exception because he wasn't as thin as the other GC riders.
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 17:44

Ryo Hazuki wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:The official Movistar website has Quintana at 58kg. But I'm sure you know better.

the movistar website is wrong like they are on more cases. but if you actually look at it with your eyes open you can see quintana is much skinnier and thinner than a betancur with same bmi according to website


Two riders with the same height and same physique (at least apparently) can have different weights, muscle mass and fat apart, but also because of water retention and different bone density, for example.
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 18:10

LaFlorecita wrote:
CheckMyPecs wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:The exception proves the rule.

In what way was Evans winning the 2011 Tour an exception?

It's not like Cadel was a once-in-a-generation talent who could overcome the alleged weight disadvantage through sheer class. It's not like the 2011 Tour was strongly ITT-biased like 2012 either.

He is an exception because he wasn't as thin as the other GC riders.

Therefore, one of the following must be true:

a) Evans is a once-in-a-generation talent who can overcome the weight disadvantage through sheer class
b) The 2011 Tour was strongly biased towards time trialists, like the 2012 Tour was
c) It is entirely possible for a rider with a BMI over 22 to win the Tour
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 18:21

CheckMyPecs wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
CheckMyPecs wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:The exception proves the rule.

In what way was Evans winning the 2011 Tour an exception?

It's not like Cadel was a once-in-a-generation talent who could overcome the alleged weight disadvantage through sheer class. It's not like the 2011 Tour was strongly ITT-biased like 2012 either.

He is an exception because he wasn't as thin as the other GC riders.

Therefore, one of the following must be true:

a) Evans is a once-in-a-generation talent who can overcome the weight disadvantage through sheer class
b) The 2011 Tour was strongly biased towards time trialists, like the 2012 Tour was
c) It is entirely possible for a rider with a BMI over 22 to win the Tour

It is possible for a rider with a relatively high BMI to win the Tour, just like it's possible for a rider with a relatively low BMI to win Roubaix. It just depends on that rider's characteristics and the circumstances.
There is still a trend that shows GC riders generally have a lower BMI than classics riders. Like I said, just make a list if you're still not convinced.
No one ever claimed that a rider with a BMI of 21+ can't win a GT, it's just less likely.
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 19:29

CheckMyPecs wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
CheckMyPecs wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:The exception proves the rule.

In what way was Evans winning the 2011 Tour an exception?

It's not like Cadel was a once-in-a-generation talent who could overcome the alleged weight disadvantage through sheer class. It's not like the 2011 Tour was strongly ITT-biased like 2012 either.

He is an exception because he wasn't as thin as the other GC riders.

Therefore, one of the following must be true:

a) Evans is a once-in-a-generation talent who can overcome the weight disadvantage through sheer class
b) The 2011 Tour was strongly biased towards time trialists, like the 2012 Tour was
c) It is entirely possible for a rider with a BMI over 22 to win the Tour


d) The BMI thing is a general rule, not an absolute edict with papal infallibility.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure why this is relevant. As far as I'm aware, Evans didn't have a higher BMI because he did upper-body training, but because he didn't want to lose power. What Evans proves is that someone with more muscle than usual can win the Tour, but that muscle was directly relevant to his Tour win because it meant he could TT better than Schleck. If he had had a BMI of 22 because he spent all his time getting ripped, he would not have won the Tour.
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12 Jun 2016 21:46

Just because it is possible for a rider with a BMI of 22 to win the Tour does not mean that it is possible for all riders to win the Tour with a BMI of 22.

Also wasn't the average speed at the 2011 edition one of the slowest of the modern era? Didn't several contenders crash out? Wasn't the first set of mountains incredibly conservatively raced? Wasn't it an edition that Thomas Voeckler was able to finish top 5 in? Wasn't one of Evans' key nemeses suspended and wasn't one of his key rivals fighting a suspension that meant they raced the Giro that year, which they would likely not have done otherwise? There are a lot of factors that are far more relevant to why Evans won the 2011 Tour than his BMI.
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Re:

13 Jun 2016 00:05

Libertine Seguros wrote:Just because it is possible for a rider with a BMI of 22 to win the Tour does not mean that it is possible for all riders to win the Tour with a BMI of 22.

Also wasn't the average speed at the 2011 edition one of the slowest of the modern era? Didn't several contenders crash out? Wasn't the first set of mountains incredibly conservatively raced? Wasn't it an edition that Thomas Voeckler was able to finish top 5 in? Wasn't one of Evans' key nemeses suspended and wasn't one of his key rivals fighting a suspension that meant they raced the Giro that year, which they would likely not have done otherwise? There are a lot of factors that are far more relevant to why Evans won the 2011 Tour than his BMI.


You are talking about every GT and what happens over three weeks. Evans won because his team kept him out of trouble. he rode a great TT, he is an excellent bike handler and he never panicked and rode a smart race. If you think he did not deserve to win just say so. Most of the things you mentioned were outside of Evan's control and don't concern him anyway. He was near the top of the GC throughout the race and perfectly positioned. Voeckler was only there because of his break that was allowed to go for too long. By the time Andy woke up to the danger of Evans on GC it was too late. Typical Schleck. Evans proved to be the strongest over three weeks as the final TT showed. If you want to know about luck in a GT ask Nibali or SK.
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Re: Upper-body training for cyclists

13 Jun 2016 00:32

BMI is BS. Measure the BMI of a Mr. Olympia, all muscles and no fat: he's heavy: is he fat? No. BMI somewhat works for the average Joe. Not for pro athletes. BMI says nothing...like JV, sort of.
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Re: Upper-body training for cyclists

13 Jun 2016 07:01

LaFlorecita wrote:It is possible for a rider with a relatively high BMI to win the Tour, just like it's possible for a rider with a relatively low BMI to win Roubaix. It just depends on that rider's characteristics and the circumstances.

Okay, glad we agree it is perfectly possible for a rider with BMI >22 to win the Tour. :)

Tonton wrote:BMI is BS. Measure the BMI of a Mr. Olympia, all muscles and no fat: he's heavy: is he fat? No. BMI somewhat works for the average Joe. Not for pro athletes. BMI says nothing...like JV, sort of.

It is true that BMI has its limitations, but since it's the best we've got for most riders in the peloton, we have to make do with it.

Knowing their BFP would be very useful.
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Re: Re:

13 Jun 2016 13:53

movingtarget wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:Just because it is possible for a rider with a BMI of 22 to win the Tour does not mean that it is possible for all riders to win the Tour with a BMI of 22.

Also wasn't the average speed at the 2011 edition one of the slowest of the modern era? Didn't several contenders crash out? Wasn't the first set of mountains incredibly conservatively raced? Wasn't it an edition that Thomas Voeckler was able to finish top 5 in? Wasn't one of Evans' key nemeses suspended and wasn't one of his key rivals fighting a suspension that meant they raced the Giro that year, which they would likely not have done otherwise? There are a lot of factors that are far more relevant to why Evans won the 2011 Tour than his BMI.


You are talking about every GT and what happens over three weeks. Evans won because his team kept him out of trouble. he rode a great TT, he is an excellent bike handler and he never panicked and rode a smart race. If you think he did not deserve to win just say so. Most of the things you mentioned were outside of Evan's control and don't concern him anyway. He was near the top of the GC throughout the race and perfectly positioned. Voeckler was only there because of his break that was allowed to go for too long. By the time Andy woke up to the danger of Evans on GC it was too late. Typical Schleck. Evans proved to be the strongest over three weeks as the final TT showed. If you want to know about luck in a GT ask Nibali or SK.

I half-agree. Evans is a bit underrated for a one-GT guy. He podiumed in all the Grand Tours, and was right there a couple of times before winning the Tour. But you do need a little luck to win a GT, and I do think Andy was a stronger all-around cyclist over three weeks in 2012, Cadel just rode a better (smarter) race. And then again, he's nowhere near as underrated as Sastre, who won it spectacularly against a better field and performed better in Grand Tours than Evans.

In any case as was alluded to by LaFlorecita, Hinault won Roubaix at around a 20.5 BMI. Which proves squat. There's a great deal of specialization to bike racing and specificity to bike racing training, but if someone is good enough with just a little luck they can win a hilly race despite carrying extra weight or a flat race despite the potential to pack a bit more power. I think we all agree on that, no?
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13 Jun 2016 15:06

Sean Kelly and co. are touting Sagan's GC credentials in the Tour de Suisse this very moment.

For some perspective, his BMI is 22.7.
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Re:

13 Jun 2016 15:36

CheckMyPecs wrote:Sean Kelly and co. are touting Sagan's GC credentials in the Tour de Suisse this very moment.

For some perspective, his BMI is 22.7.


Just because Kelly and Co are touting him as a GC contender in Suisse doesn't mean he is a GC contender
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Re: Re:

13 Jun 2016 15:45

carton wrote:
movingtarget wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:Just because it is possible for a rider with a BMI of 22 to win the Tour does not mean that it is possible for all riders to win the Tour with a BMI of 22.

Also wasn't the average speed at the 2011 edition one of the slowest of the modern era? Didn't several contenders crash out? Wasn't the first set of mountains incredibly conservatively raced? Wasn't it an edition that Thomas Voeckler was able to finish top 5 in? Wasn't one of Evans' key nemeses suspended and wasn't one of his key rivals fighting a suspension that meant they raced the Giro that year, which they would likely not have done otherwise? There are a lot of factors that are far more relevant to why Evans won the 2011 Tour than his BMI.


You are talking about every GT and what happens over three weeks. Evans won because his team kept him out of trouble. he rode a great TT, he is an excellent bike handler and he never panicked and rode a smart race. If you think he did not deserve to win just say so. Most of the things you mentioned were outside of Evan's control and don't concern him anyway. He was near the top of the GC throughout the race and perfectly positioned. Voeckler was only there because of his break that was allowed to go for too long. By the time Andy woke up to the danger of Evans on GC it was too late. Typical Schleck. Evans proved to be the strongest over three weeks as the final TT showed. If you want to know about luck in a GT ask Nibali or SK.

I half-agree. Evans is a bit underrated for a one-GT guy. He podiumed in all the Grand Tours, and was right there a couple of times before winning the Tour. But you do need a little luck to win a GT, and I do think Andy was a stronger all-around cyclist over three weeks in 2012, Cadel just rode a better (smarter) race. And then again, he's nowhere near as underrated as Sastre, who won it spectacularly against a better field and performed better in Grand Tours than Evans.

In any case as was alluded to by LaFlorecita, Hinault won Roubaix at around a 20.5 BMI. Which proves squat. There's a great deal of specialization to bike racing and specificity to bike racing training, but if someone is good enough with just a little luck they can win a hilly race despite carrying extra weight or a flat race despite the potential to pack a bit more power. I think we all agree on that, no?


Evans put two and half minutes into Schleck in the final TT and over one minute into him on the descent into Gap. Those two time gaps showed Schleck's deficiencies as an all rounder. Schleck made one big attack on the Galibier and Evans managed to minimize the time loss and he could not shake off Evans on the Alpe the next day. I thought Schleck rode a much better race in 2010 and should have beaten Contador on the road. Schleck and Evans probably should have won more GTs but that's bike racing. The odd thing about Sastre was that he won the Tour in 2008 and then seemed to fall off the radar. Maybe he lost his motivation and was happy to win one Tour.
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Re: Re:

13 Jun 2016 16:12

StryderHells wrote:[Just because Kelly and Co are touting him as a GC contender in Suisse doesn't mean he is a GC contender

Yep. Sagan is an absolute freak, one of the most talented all-rounders in history. He is still not going to win this TdS.
movingtarget wrote:The odd thing about Sastre was that he won the Tour in 2008 and then seemed to fall off the radar. Maybe he lost his motivation and was happy to win one Tour.

Not the thread to re-debate the 2011 TdF but I do think Evans deserved his Tour, he was one of the best stage racers and he raced a good race. I'll will continue to disagree on the "strongest" assessment. YMMV.

In any case, it's funny how narratives go. Evan's best GT results after his win: 3rd, 7th, 8th (no other top-20s). Sastre's best GT results after his win; 2nd, 7th, 8th (3 other top 20s). Don't think either of them "fell off the radar", they just won old and got older. Also, Evans was a better one day racer, and an outspoken English speaker, not two qualities that Sastre shared, which may contribute to the way he is often (scarcely) remembered around these parts.
Last edited by carton on 13 Jun 2016 16:15, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Re:

13 Jun 2016 16:12

StryderHells wrote:
CheckMyPecs wrote:Sean Kelly and co. are touting Sagan's GC credentials in the Tour de Suisse this very moment.

For some perspective, his BMI is 22.7.


Just because Kelly and Co are touting him as a GC contender in Suisse doesn't mean he is a GC contender


Thing is, they didn't, CMP is taking Sean Kelly out of context to try and prove his point. What they did say was that he [Sagan] could snatch the lead today (therefore lead the GC) after having broke away from the pack in the final kilometers - they never mentioned him being capable of winning the final GC.
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13 Jun 2016 17:38

Sastre didn't fall off the cliff immediately after winning the Tour though, he podiumed the next two GTs he entered (including two mountaintop stage wins in the 2009 Giro - albeit the podium came after di Luca's DQ).

And also, I didn't ever say Evans didn't deserve his Tour win. Just that it's false to say that him winning proves that there is no problem with a higher BMI when it comes to winning GTs and *therefore* thinner riders should bulk up as it won't be to their detriment as Evans proves you can do it. Because there are a lot of factors involved in winning a GT, and your BMI is only one of them. And different riders with different VO2Maxes, different aerobic and anaerobic capacities, different training regimes and different season's goals will have different physical shape and characteristics, and your actual physical body size/shape is only one of the many, many factors - some of which you can and some of which you can't control - that go into winning a GT. One of those is pure luck, but every single GT win in the history of cycling has a luck factor involved in it. Sure, some more than others, but ultimately as the cliché goes, to finish first, first you have to finish. Cadel Evans deserved to win the 2011 Tour de France because he completed the course faster than anybody else. Schleck didn't deserve to win the 2011 Tour de France because he raced like an utter coward in the Pyrenées and waited until too late in the game to take the risks to overcome his shortcomings in the TT against the more balanced GT rider, Evans.

If Sagan stays within a country mile of the elite climbers in the field on the Rettenbachferner, the apocalypse is nigh. Even in a limited field where the only ones who haven't already lost fairly significant time are Rui Costa, Jarlinson Pantano, Wilco Kelderman, Geraint Thomas, Simon Spilak, Ion Izagirre, Mathias Fränk, Tejay van Garderen, Andrew Talansky, Sam Oomen, Tiago Machado, Michele Scarponi, Miguel Ángel López, Joe Dombrowski and Przemysław Niemiec - with three straight mountaintop finishes, if not one of them can drop Peter Sagan, that's going to blow people's minds.
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