Log in:  

Register

Motor doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

Re:

11 Aug 2017 19:07

sniper wrote:thanks Irondan.
Yeah I tried that, and all those cloud services require registration of some kind.

This one doesn't
https://vgy.me/
works for me - just click on the big up-arrow and select an image from you disk
User avatar TourOfSardinia
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,593
Joined: 16 Feb 2010 14:25
Location: Sardinia

Re: Re:

11 Aug 2017 20:45

TourOfSardinia wrote:
sniper wrote:thanks Irondan.
Yeah I tried that, and all those cloud services require registration of some kind.

This one doesn't
https://vgy.me/
works for me - just click on the big up-arrow and select an image from you disk

Thanks ToS, gonna give it try.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

11 Aug 2017 20:49

imgur.com is pretty much the standard for this kind of thing.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,730
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

11 Aug 2017 20:49

Thanks guys.
ToS' link worked a charm.

This motor allegedly gives you 20 watts for an hour with a Di2 battery.
For the moment I can't say (and tbh don't really know) a whole lot more about the context/source of the photo.
Image
Last edited by sniper on 12 Aug 2017 07:47, edited 1 time in total.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

11 Aug 2017 21:27

That looks like a wee DC brushless motor that you could get very high rpm out of. Torque is the problem, so it's married to a fair sized gear box. However, I doubt very much that you'd get 20 Watts of output torque at the needed 50-200 rpm. That looks more like something that would go into a dental drill or some such.

John Swanson

edit: spelling
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,502
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re:

11 Aug 2017 21:38

ScienceIsCool wrote:That looks like a wee DC brushless motor that you could get very high rpm out of. Torque is the problem, so it's married to a fair sized gear box. However, I doubt very much that you'd get 20 Watts of output torque at the needed 50-200 rpm. That looks more like something that would go into a dental drill or some such.

John Swanson

edit: spelling
Cheers.
I don't know a whole lot more about the source/origin/context of the photo, but I'll try and see if I can get a bit more feedback.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re: Re:

11 Aug 2017 21:41

jmdirt wrote:...
Why hasn't Stade or another source followed up?
how do you know they haven't/aren't?
If they would have continued investigating I would give them more credit, but they just hit out with a story and then went quiet (well other than repeating their original story).
What were/are they supposed to do?
And again your formulation "if they would have continued" suggests you know they haven't continued. Which you have no idea about.

Remember, they also ran the Barfield story. They (Thierry Vildary + Marco Bonarrigo) are to my knowledge up till now the only ones who've done anything investigative on motors.
Shane Stokes, Thomas Mustroph and Ger Gilroy also deserve a mention for at least taking the issue seriously, reporting on it, and interviewing people like Lemond and Varjas. But what Thierry and Marco did is in my humble view the very best that has been done on the topic thus far.
Yes, there's a need to scrutinize the results and allegations.
But I don't see much reason to criticize the two of them, and absolutely zero reason to assume it was some kind of conspiracy against Roglic/LottoJumbo.

I know omerta is a powerful thing,
Bingo. That's rule nr1.
but why haven't we heard anything from the platoon?
See rule nr1.

Dopers could be sneaky about their injections, transfusions, etc, but adding a motor requires more people being in the know (more people to talk).
Scienceiscool had a darn good post touching on this subject which should answer most of your doubts/questions in this regard, I'll see if I can dig it up.

To be sure, your question "why have other sources not followed up on the Stade 2 report" is a wholly legitimate question. In my view, it says a lot about the lack of appetite among the current crop of sports journos to investigate and do the heavy lifting wrt cheating/corruption in pro-cycling.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re:

11 Aug 2017 22:25

sniper wrote:Thanks guys.
ToS' link worked a charm.

This motor allegedly gives you 20 watts for an hour.
For the moment I can't say (and tbh don't really know) a whole lot more about the context/source of the photo.
Image

How does the skewer go through?
jmdirt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,466
Joined: 06 Dec 2013 17:33

Re: Re:

11 Aug 2017 22:27

sniper wrote:
jmdirt wrote:...
Why hasn't Stade or another source followed up?
how do you know they haven't/aren't? Wouldn't we have read it?
If they would have continued investigating I would give them more credit, but they just hit out with a story and then went quiet (well other than repeating their original story).
What were/are they supposed to do?
And again your formulation "if they would have continued" suggests you know they haven't continued. Which you have no idea about. Wouldn't they have published something more by now?

Remember, they also ran the Barfield story. They (Thierry Vildary + Marco Bonarrigo) are to my knowledge up till now the only ones who've done anything investigative on motors.
Shane Stokes, Thomas Mustroph and Ger Gilroy also deserve a mention for at least taking the issue seriously, reporting on it, and interviewing people like Lemond and Varjas. But what Thierry and Marco did is in my humble view the very best that has been done on the topic thus far.
Yes, there's a need to scrutinize the results and allegations.
But I don't see much reason to criticize the two of them, and absolutely zero reason to assume it was some kind of conspiracy against Roglic/LottoJumbo.

I know omerta is a powerful thing,
Bingo. That's rule nr1.
but why haven't we heard anything from the platoon?
See rule nr1.

Dopers could be sneaky about their injections, transfusions, etc, but adding a motor requires more people being in the know (more people to talk).
Scienceiscool had a darn good post touching on this subject which should answer most of your doubts/questions in this regard, I'll see if I can dig it up.

To be sure, your question "why have other sources not followed up on the Stade 2 report" is a wholly legitimate question. In my view, it says a lot about the lack of appetite among the current crop of sports journos to investigate and do the heavy lifting wrt cheating/corruption in pro-cycling.
jmdirt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,466
Joined: 06 Dec 2013 17:33

Re:

12 Aug 2017 12:05

So here we have 20 watts for an hour with a Di2 battery:

Image

Here we have Roglic:

ImageImage

Stade 2's hypothetical design for comparison:
Image
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

12 Aug 2017 21:24

This is what is great about the clinic and why it is so valuable. This discussion is rich with material and while it asks many questions, there are still many more. But you all are on to something.
I look at my ipad, or my iphone, just those two devices alone let me know that motors in bikes do exist and most likely in forms(such as Sniper's photo) not yet realized.
Why does the UCI make it so obvious that they don't care about fighting motors in bikes? We have all seen enough.
Is it unfeasible to have some sort of "pit area" where all the race bikes are held and scanned upon entry/exit during all periods of downtime during a race?
What rules can one come up with to help get a tighter grip/closer eye on the bikes during a races' downtime?
User avatar papisimo98
Junior Member
 
Posts: 72
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 15:32
Location: wilshire and 26th

13 Aug 2017 08:32

So, now we know that if Roglič could spin fast as a dental drill he would be ~1 min faster in a 40 km TT than without a hypothetical dental drill hub motor :lol:
User avatar miguelindurain111
Junior Member
 
Posts: 178
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 13:03

Re:

13 Aug 2017 10:53

miguelindurain111 wrote:So, now we know that if Roglič could spin fast as a dental drill he would be ~1 min faster in a 40 km TT than without a hypothetical dental drill hub motor :lol:


I could be entirely wrong, too. I just commented on what it looks like. Note that a DC brushless motor only needs two wires. This one has a lot of lines going to it. Maybe it's not what it looks like and is a miniature stepper with an encoder? Maybe this photo is of a bench testable prototype which is why it has a normal shaft instead of integrated hardware for building into a hub.

Sigh. I miss puttering around in a lab. Anyone got an interesting project I can work on?

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,502
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re: Re:

13 Aug 2017 11:03

sniper wrote:So here we have 20 watts for an hour with a Di2 battery:

Image

Here we have Roglic:

ImageImage

Stade 2's hypothetical design for comparison:
Image


Isn't the rim in the FLIR image the same temperature or hotter than the supposed hub motor?
advanced one
Newly Registered Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 13 Aug 2017 10:47

13 Aug 2017 13:49

It is perfectly plausible to think that there is definitely motor doping in the pro ranks. The biggest problem is the UCI. They simply don't want a bar of it. If there was no WADA and local anti doping agencies do you think the UCI would do anything about doping? Yes they get on their pedestal about doping including Cookson using it as his main election policy last election to gain his presidency but only because they have to and are forced into it. With no official outside body pressuring the UCI regarding motors don't expect any real effort from them to keep on top of it.
Craigee
Junior Member
 
Posts: 191
Joined: 18 Aug 2016 06:18

13 Aug 2017 21:00

If you haven't already seem this:

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/reviews/this-is-what-its-like-to-ride-a-bike-with-a-hidden-motor

Probably too heavy for Pro use. I'm pretty sure that this is what a local guy set up last year, but I haven't talked to him or his crew since last summer.
jmdirt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,466
Joined: 06 Dec 2013 17:33

Re: Re:

13 Aug 2017 23:31

ScienceIsCool wrote:I miss puttering around in a lab. Anyone got an interesting project I can work on?


Alas, it is all software nowadays.. :cry:
Teddy Boom
Junior Member
 
Posts: 73
Joined: 22 May 2010 05:53

14 Aug 2017 08:37

I didn't think someone could produce a hub motor yet, in my opinion a bb-motor was more likely (still a low risk, high reward). I stand corrected.

Still think Roglic in Strade Bianche is unlikely but suspect (it's much more likely to be in time trials I think, also because of the risk that if you flat neutral service takes your wheel... that doesn't happen in TTs), but it's gotten a whole lot closer at this point.
Marxten
New Member
 
Posts: 12
Joined: 09 Aug 2017 15:47
Location: Netherlands

Re:

14 Aug 2017 11:40

jmdirt wrote:If you haven't already seem this:

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/reviews/this-is-what-its-like-to-ride-a-bike-with-a-hidden-motor

Probably too heavy for Pro use. I'm pretty sure that this is what a local guy set up last year, but I haven't talked to him or his crew since last summer.

Not much news in that link, but still an interesting review. I think crank assist is still the way to go in the amateur/semi-pro/masters scene.

I thought you asked some good questions in the MTB thread. I'm copying your post here, maybe John or someone else can shed some thoughts on it.
jmdirt said:

I did an easy ride today so while I was spinning up a 20 minute climb (10 if riding hard :), the Stade hypothetical motor popped into my head. My number one question is still the same as I posted on the Motor Fraud thread: how do you get a skewer through it to hold the wheel on, especially a 12 mm through axle for dirt use? Another question is, how does the motor spindle get its power to the freewheel? The spindle is really small, are they assuming to use watch size gears to get the power to the freewheel? If so, would that even last for one ride? The lack of explanation of how their hypothetical motor would work just makes me doubt them more.

I didn't spend much time looking, but here is a planetary gear drive that could be used with the motor to allow it to drive the freewheel:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXWVT4&P=FR&atrkid=V3ADW3A24148B_10642245165_pla-69845187350__36556522365_g_c_pla_with_promotion__1o3&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8b_MBRDcARIsAKJE7lkisiHNGaKX7ys-H7l4Phq-li69V9hZwtQqwZrZWdmfS5-qn3y34OQaAq32EALw_wcB

That's one more piece that has to be added inside of limited space.

They could spline (key) the end of the shaft and put a gear directly on it, but that would require a unique freehub body housing too. And that still leaves the question of the small spindle handling the loads needed.

Again, I'm not saying that no one would do it or it can't be done, but the rear hub just doesn't seem like the most workable area. IMO, there is no rear hub motor in use in pro dirt racing. If you want to find space for hidden motor development, how about the BB?
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

14 Aug 2017 12:24

Mountainbikes don't have a radially laced front wheel. That opens up the front hub for a possible motor, and with the boost standard taking over there is more space than before.

Also: There is no neutral service in a MTB race, so no chances that your wheel passes into someone's hands without your knowledge.

(And in a response why some riders stay in the MTB scene when they could earn more in the WT: Schurter tried and didn't cut it and someone like MvdP doesn't like road racing, so he's splitting his time between CX and XC. I don't think he is alone in that)
Marxten
New Member
 
Posts: 12
Joined: 09 Aug 2017 15:47
Location: Netherlands

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alpe73, dusty red roads, timmers and 29 guests

Back to top