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Froome Talk Only

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

15 Nov 2017 03:42

Escarabajo wrote:Is Parker really being serious? I am not sure! :confused:



I think he might be, 2012 was a great year, the birth of the Skybot :cool:
User avatar thehog
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 05:20

Parker wrote:
Bronstein wrote:
By who?

Claudio Corti the boss of Barloworld for one. The British cycling media made out that he was a future GC contender when he changed nationality. The one vague contact I had in cycling at the time also said it.


Yet the mastermind didn't. Why?:

Image
Bronstein
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 05:52

Parker wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.


Climbing stages:
169th
73rd
142nd
46th
115th
125th
136th
30th

He finished 11'41" behind the winner on Alpe d'Huez. The riders who finished immediately after him were largely domestiques (Ten Dam, Lopez, Vansummeren, Popovych, Astarloza, etc).
Bronstein
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 07:14

Parker wrote:
Blanco wrote:
Go back a little and read more carefully. I said it started with regular doping (at La Vuelta, in his own and Michelle's arrangement). After that he gets protection from almighty Sky empire as Wiggins wingman, but it becomes apparent that he reacts much better to program than Wiggo. And so in 2013 comes the motors thing, because they were afraid of Contador who didn't race at the Tour 2012, but won Vuelta right after his return (beating Froome in the process). After that is a stuff of legends :lol:

Oh, god. This is all about some Contador fandom is it? I suppose the other riders that beat Contador in 2013 all had motors too. And everyone who has beaten him since.


Again you're not reading carefully. Motors can be used only by they who have protection on highest places, and we all know who are they. Even you... :lol:
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 07:23

Parker wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.


That's a sleight of hand. He was a first year pro because he hadn't been good enough earlier to get a pro contract. Its not like he started riding that year. He was 23 years old. His contemporaries nibali and schleck were performing 10 x better.

Pretty much everyone not named bjarne riis was better at that age.

Haha, you pick and choose your statistics so blatantly I'm assuming your "contact in the cycling world" is brailsfrauds friend Alistair Campbell.
When you figured out Froome was easily old enough in 2008 to not be finishing 10 minutes down on his best stage, you quickly changed it to "first year pro", even though being a First year pro also doesn't excuse the world's greatest talent finishing so far behind on their good days and so much worse on their bad days.

Edit: I think actually bjarne was also better at that age too
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 08:29

thehog wrote:There is a Froome thread from 2011 Vuelta named “No way Froome and Sky are clean”. Many Skyfans at the time were stating how Froome was about to “drop off” as he had done all his hard work in the first week helping Wiggins :cool:


Sorry if this is somewhat offtopic, but does anyone know if the Vuelta 2011 eurosport broadcast is available somewhere on the internet (preferably streaming)? I looked around last summer but didn't find anything. Should be amusing to watch with what we know now.
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Re:

15 Nov 2017 12:06

yaco wrote:I must be reading something different - My interpretation is Deviant is clearly stating that Froome is using a variety of substances - some legal/some banned which accounts for some of his improved performance - I also suspect Deviant is implying Froome is using new substances which aren't even on WADA's radar yet, which in coming years may be banned - It's like some here are arguing with themselves.


Bingo.

...it wasnt so hard to understand was it?!

I believe Froome is doping, have said that before and i'll say it again, i believe he and Sky are at the cutting edge...what i dont believe is the motor doping accusations, thats all.
deviant
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:10

Bronstein wrote:
Parker wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.


Climbing stages:
169th
73rd
142nd
46th
115th
125th
136th
30th

He finished 11'41" behind the winner on Alpe d'Huez. The riders who finished immediately after him were largely domestiques (Ten Dam, Lopez, Vansummeren, Popovych, Astarloza, etc).

All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.
User avatar 42x16ss
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:15

Parker wrote:
Bronstein wrote:
By who?

Claudio Corti the boss of Barloworld for one. The British cycling media made out that he was a future GC contender when he changed nationality. The one vague contact I had in cycling at the time also said it.


and one of his peers dan martin :D

i'm sure his ex-manager had no financial interest in bigging him up and that the british media don't write puff pieces for whatever SDB tells them....
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:19

42x16ss wrote:
Bronstein wrote:
Parker wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.


Climbing stages:
169th
73rd
142nd
46th
115th
125th
136th
30th

He finished 11'41" behind the winner on Alpe d'Huez. The riders who finished immediately after him were largely domestiques (Ten Dam, Lopez, Vansummeren, Popovych, Astarloza, etc).

All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.

Or that is what doping early in your career looks like. Lets be fair here, we are calling out how obvious it was Chris started late in life and how ridiculous it is that he hasn't been caught due to that. The list above have probably taken more over their careers, they were clever/lucky enough t belong to the old brigade where doping was the norm from the off-rather than the unusual route Froome took. All doping bar none. In fact Schleck is like Froome in reverse...doped to the gills early and a tragic descent later on for no apparant reason.
noddy69
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:37

42x16ss wrote:All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.

OK let's look at some of their backgrounds.

Ullrich - product of the East German sports schools
Schleck - son of an ex-pro, surrounded by cycling his entire life
Evans - part of AIS aged 17
Nibali - family moved to join junior team aged 16
(I know little of Contador and Quintana's background)

Froome - started racing at 18. Still a full time economics student aged 20. Came from a country that has never produced another pro cyclist, grew up in a country that had produced about two.

Those other riders merely had earlier and easier opportunities
Parker
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:40

Bronstein wrote:
Parker wrote:
Bronstein wrote:
By who?

Claudio Corti the boss of Barloworld for one. The British cycling media made out that he was a future GC contender when he changed nationality. The one vague contact I had in cycling at the time also said it.


Yet the mastermind didn't. Why?:

Image


That Graph is fabulous. Cant see it enough. Wigan's doesn't even make top 5 of their predictions either and Froome, jeepers, that is embarrassing to place no higher achievement then pro conti podium..... :lol:

I hope Froome has that framed in his house.
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:42

Benotti69 wrote:
That Graph is fabulous. Cant see it enough. Wigan's doesn't even make top 5 of their predictions either and Froome, jeepers, that is embarrassing to place no higher achievement then pro conti podium..... :lol:

I hope Froome has that framed in his house.

It doesn't show predictions. It shows actual performances from 2010.
Parker
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:44

Parker wrote:
42x16ss wrote:All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.

OK let's look at some of their backgrounds.

Ullrich - product of the East German sports schools
Schleck - son of an ex-pro, surrounded by cycling his entire life
Evans - part of AIS aged 17
Nibali - family moved to join junior team aged 16
(I know little of Contador and Quintana's background)

Froome - started racing at 18. Still a full time economics student aged 20. Came from a country that has never produced another pro cyclist, grew up in a country that had produced about two.

Those other riders merely had earlier and easier opportunities


To ride a bike is not about production lines. Ireland produced 2 highly talented class riders from a minority of a minority sport in the 80s. Class is there in cycling or not. Just because Froome was a little later than others doesn't explain the massive jump in ability in 2 weeks in 2011.

Roglic moved sport at what age? 21?
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:49

Benotti69 wrote:
To ride a bike is not about production lines. Ireland produced 2 highly talented class riders from a minority of a minority sport in the 80s. Class is there in cycling or not. Just because Froome was a little later than others doesn't explain the massive jump in ability in 2 weeks in 2011.

Roglic moved sport at what age? 21?

And Kelly didn't get on the podium of a monument until he was 27

Roglic spent three years riding at Continental level before turning pro.

Froome went from the WCC to the Tour de France in less than a year after half a season at Konica
Parker
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 20:58

Parker wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
To ride a bike is not about production lines. Ireland produced 2 highly talented class riders from a minority of a minority sport in the 80s. Class is there in cycling or not. Just because Froome was a little later than others doesn't explain the massive jump in ability in 2 weeks in 2011.

Roglic moved sport at what age? 21?

And Kelly didn't get on the podium of a monument until he was 27

Roglic spent three years riding at Continental level before turning pro.

Froome went from the WCC to the Tour de France in less than a year after half a season at Konica


you might want to check Kelly's first years as a pro palmares against Froomes. Everyone knew Kelly was going to win big. No one predicted what Froome was going to do.

Kelly won a TdF stage in 2nd years as a pro. Froome won the Tour of Mauritius. To compare Kelly's 1st four years as a pro with Froome's 1st four years, they are millenia apart in talent.
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 21:00

Parker wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
To ride a bike is not about production lines. Ireland produced 2 highly talented class riders from a minority of a minority sport in the 80s. Class is there in cycling or not. Just because Froome was a little later than others doesn't explain the massive jump in ability in 2 weeks in 2011.

Roglic moved sport at what age? 21?

<<snipped>>>
Froome went from the WCC to the Tour de France in less than a year after half a season at Konica


And yet Sky wanted rid of him. The team that left no attention to detail unturned missed Froome's alleged illnesses and alleged talent.

Sorry still not buying it.
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 21:18

Parker wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
To ride a bike is not about production lines. Ireland produced 2 highly talented class riders from a minority of a minority sport in the 80s. Class is there in cycling or not. Just because Froome was a little later than others doesn't explain the massive jump in ability in 2 weeks in 2011.

Roglic moved sport at what age? 21?

And Kelly didn't get on the podium of a monument until he was 27

Roglic spent three years riding at Continental level before turning pro.

Froome went from the WCC to the Tour de France in less than a year after half a season at Konica

You cannot compare Froome to Kelly......lets copy and paste the first 4 years for each shall we (Wiki)

Sean Kelly
1977
1st Stage 1 Tour de Romandie
1st Stage 4 Étoile des Espoirs
1978
1st Stage 6 Tour de France
Setmana Catalana de Ciclismo
1st Stage 1a (TTT) & 1b
1st Stage 3 Tour Méditerranéen
1st Stage 5a Étoile des Espoirs
1979
Vuelta a España
1st Stages 1 & 8a
1st GP de Cannes
9th Road race, UCI Road World Championships
10th Omloop Het Volk
1980
1st Jersey white.svg Overall Three Days of De Panne
1st Stage 2
Tour de France
1st Stages 19 & 21
1st Stage 3a Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 4 Ronde van Nederland
2nd E3 Prijs Vlaanderen
2nd De Brabantse Pijl
2nd Tour du Haut Var
3rd Amstel Gold Race
3rd Omloop Het Volk
3rd Kuurne–Brussels–Kuurne
4th Overall Vuelta a España
1st Jersey green.svg Points classification
1st Sprints classification
1st Stages 1, 2, 14, 17 19 & 21
4th Milan–San Remo

Chris Froome
2007
1st Jersey yellow.svg Overall Mi-Août en Bretagne
1st Stage 5 Giro delle Regioni
1st Stage 6 Tour of Japan
2nd Berg en Dale Classic
2nd Silver medal blank.svg Time trial, UCI B World Championships
3rd Road race, All-Africa Games
8th Tour du Doubs
2008
2nd Overall Giro del Capo
3rd Giro dell'Appennino
4th Overall Herald Sun Tour
6th Overall Volta ao Distrito de Santarém
2009
1st Stage 2 Giro del Capo
1st Anatomic Jock Race
4th Road race, National Road Championships
9th Gran Premio Nobili Rubinetterie
2010
2nd Time trial, National Road Championships
5th Time trial, Commonwealth Games
9th Overall Tour du Haut Var

Ridiculous comparison and at this point I believe you're trolling with no genuine belief Froome is clean..or you just have no idea what you're on about
noddy69
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 21:25

noddy69 wrote:
Parker wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
To ride a bike is not about production lines. Ireland produced 2 highly talented class riders from a minority of a minority sport in the 80s. Class is there in cycling or not. Just because Froome was a little later than others doesn't explain the massive jump in ability in 2 weeks in 2011.

Roglic moved sport at what age? 21?

And Kelly didn't get on the podium of a monument until he was 27

Roglic spent three years riding at Continental level before turning pro.

Froome went from the WCC to the Tour de France in less than a year after half a season at Konica

You cannot compare Froome to Kelly......lets copy and paste the first 4 years for each shall we (Wiki)

Sean Kelly
1977
1st Stage 1 Tour de Romandie
1st Stage 4 Étoile des Espoirs
1978
1st Stage 6 Tour de France
Setmana Catalana de Ciclismo
1st Stage 1a (TTT) & 1b
1st Stage 3 Tour Méditerranéen
1st Stage 5a Étoile des Espoirs
1979
Vuelta a España
1st Stages 1 & 8a
1st GP de Cannes
9th Road race, UCI Road World Championships
10th Omloop Het Volk
1980
1st Jersey white.svg Overall Three Days of De Panne
1st Stage 2
Tour de France
1st Stages 19 & 21
1st Stage 3a Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 4 Ronde van Nederland
2nd E3 Prijs Vlaanderen
2nd De Brabantse Pijl
2nd Tour du Haut Var
3rd Amstel Gold Race
3rd Omloop Het Volk
3rd Kuurne–Brussels–Kuurne
4th Overall Vuelta a España
1st Jersey green.svg Points classification
1st Sprints classification
1st Stages 1, 2, 14, 17 19 & 21
4th Milan–San Remo

Chris Froome
2007
1st Jersey yellow.svg Overall Mi-Août en Bretagne
1st Stage 5 Giro delle Regioni
1st Stage 6 Tour of Japan
2nd Berg en Dale Classic
2nd Silver medal blank.svg Time trial, UCI B World Championships
3rd Road race, All-Africa Games
8th Tour du Doubs
2008
2nd Overall Giro del Capo
3rd Giro dell'Appennino
4th Overall Herald Sun Tour
6th Overall Volta ao Distrito de Santarém
2009
1st Stage 2 Giro del Capo
1st Anatomic Jock Race
4th Road race, National Road Championships
9th Gran Premio Nobili Rubinetterie
2010
2nd Time trial, National Road Championships
5th Time trial, Commonwealth Games
9th Overall Tour du Haut Var

Ridiculous comparison and at this point I believe you're trolling with no genuine belief Froome is clean..or you just have no idea what you're on about


I think you're being unfair...the anatomic jock race.......SA's equivalent to the Avenir :lol:
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 22:20

noddy69 wrote:
42x16ss wrote:
Bronstein wrote:
Parker wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.


Climbing stages:
169th
73rd
142nd
46th
115th
125th
136th
30th

He finished 11'41" behind the winner on Alpe d'Huez. The riders who finished immediately after him were largely domestiques (Ten Dam, Lopez, Vansummeren, Popovych, Astarloza, etc).

All Froome showed in 2008 was that he wasn’t entirely out of his depth. Let’s look at what some other first year pros achieved:

Jan Ulrich: National TT Champion, 2nd Tour de Limousin at 21

Alberto Contador: 1st Tour de Pologne ITT, 4th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 22

Andy Schleck: National TT Champion, 3rd National RR, 7th GP de Wallonie, 9th 4 Days of Dunkirk at 20

Cadel Evans: 1st Tour of Austria + 2 stages, 1st Brixia Tour + stage, 6th Giro dell Appenino, 8th Bayern Rundhfart at 23

Vincenzo Nibali: 2nd stage 6 Tour de Suisse, 4th National TT, 6th Milan-Torino at 20

Nairo Quintana: mountain class. Volta Catalunya, 15th Vuelta Castilla y Leon at 21

THIS is what talent looks like.

Or that is what doping early in your career looks like. Lets be fair here, we are calling out how obvious it was Chris started late in life and how ridiculous it is that he hasn't been caught due to that. The list above have probably taken more over their careers, they were clever/lucky enough t belong to the old brigade where doping was the norm from the off-rather than the unusual route Froome took. All doping bar none. In fact Schleck is like Froome in reverse...doped to the gills early and a tragic descent later on for no apparant reason.


Umm, Andy's descent was due to a career ending injury.

Edit: Deleted sentence was confrontational.
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