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Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gold

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Russian Insider Says State-Run Doping Fueled Olympic Gol

07 Dec 2017 00:10

BullsFan22 wrote:
deviant wrote:Got to love the clinic, this is where nobody from Team Sky has tested positive (yet) but according to common wisdom in here the whole 'dirty' team should be banned for the good of the sport....but good old mother Russia has a long and rich history of doping, corruption, sample tampering etc and there's a load of butt hurt posters claiming that Russia's treatment is unfair....lol.

Does this go back to the whole good dopers and bad dopers thing which i don't seem to share with others in here and probably need explaining to me again for comedy effect....please explain why Indurain, Pantani, Ullrich and Riis...dominant in the EPO/rocket fuel era are ok and still have their TdF titles but Armstrong is the boogeyman?...could it be that he took a European sport and a European method of cheating and ended up doing it better than the euro riders in the end!?

Russia has been up to this for decades, old state files show it, old testimonies from damaged practically transgendered athletes who unwittingly took whatever they were ordered to take etc, the Soichi lab, the Rodchenkov documentary etc etc...frankly they should be grateful not to have had the Armstrong treatment and been banned from all sport under the WADA code for life.

The clinic likes to say that a doping culture never goes away, that TdF riders will always dope...if that's true what does that say about Russia and the former East Germany?...they physically ruined kids looking for the next gold medal, when they found one with potential they fed them PEDS like cattle and didn't give a **** when they started changing sex in front of the international communities eyes...Armstrong gets the same EPO and transfusions half the peleton were using and ended a some careers (Landis, Bassons etc) by acting like a prick and he's suddenly the worst thing to have ever happened in doping!.....people have short memories, and Germany and Russia are complicit in more crimes against sport than Armstrong would've ever been able to achieve.



Got to love this as well:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

http://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2003/q-a-with-dr-wade-exum/

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/rio-2016-russia-by-no-means-the-only-doping-offenders-at-the-olympics-past-or-present-1.163052

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/2400198/Athletics-Now-drink-tarnishes-Lewis-legend.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100883

https://www.espn.com/page2/tvlistings/show17transcript.html


So how come no sanctions or bans were leveled against the USOC after those news came out? Why did Carl Lewis, after failing 3(!!!) doping tests in the summer of 1988 alone, get to compete and steal medals? You can spool about the Russians all you want, and I am sure you can call this 'whataboutism' but I call it double standards and hypocrisy from the IOC. Even Richard Pound acknowledged that the Americans were doping in an interview prior to the 2000 Sydney Olympics, but did nothing to investigate and give out suspensions and sanctions. Meanwhile one Russian moves to the US, tells the authorities all they want to hear and the IOC bans Russia.


Right on the money. Well said.
Craigee
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Re: Re:

07 Dec 2017 00:18

veganrob wrote:
Craigee wrote:said it before but the Russians must have had a poor cheating regime if they were not the top medal nation while having this supposed great doping programme. It's the same argument as everyone who said that Lance Armstrong must be doping if the 2nd 3rd and 4th placed tour riders all got caught doping. They were proven correct in the end. I suspect the USA and Great Britain of having a doping programme. The Yanks are the Kings of doping and the Brits have improved out of sight lately.

and lets be honest, it's pay back for the computer hacking and it's a lovely bonus for all other nations knowing they will win more medals with Russia not there. It's all politics as usual.

Those here saying it's a good job well done banning Russia are hypocrites. Great Britain is clearly up to no good for starters with their massive improvements in so short a time.

Can you please back up what you state in your first sentence about Sky.


Pardon?
Craigee
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Re: Re:

07 Dec 2017 04:27

djpbaltimore wrote:
yaco wrote:Think Bulls Fan argument is how selective Anti-Doping Agencies are when it comes to investigating doping, and how it's challenging to have faith in these organisations - There is more than enough evidence to suggest Sochi 2014 may not have occurred if the IOC/WADA had investigated allegations from journalist Nick Harris in July 2013.
I would agree with that part of it. However, I disagree with the implicit minimizing of the severity of what Russia actually did to reach this point.


I am in no way minimising Russia's institutionalised doping - The second part of my paragraph is important because it shows the IOC/WADA had evidence of Russia's doping in July 2013. but yet did nothing.
yaco
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Re:

07 Dec 2017 06:56

Libertine Seguros wrote:Barring states who have engaged in such broad-spectrum doping policies is an understandable step, although it is fraught with certain issues (for example, nation-switching athletes mean there are Russians who may have been involved in what happened at Sochi who will compete in Pyeongchang while Russians who had nothing to do with it will have to jump through hoops). And because of the scale of what went on, there needed to be some action taken that penalized those responsible, because individual athletes have paid the price for years on end, and while some will have doped of their own volition to be more competitive, to make selections, or whatever, in many of these cases, no matter how complicit they may be in the doping program the athletes themselves are not the ones that initiated it; in the Clinic much is made of how the enablers, the doping doctors and the authority figures involved are never the ones that pay, and this is an important move in that direction, in sanctioning the Russian team as a whole rather than the individuals found to have doped (some of whom have retired, or have been kept from competition for long enough that a ban would be of limited value).

However, at the same time I am not cheerleading the decision. Much of that is for the same reason as CONI didn't reduce Riccardo Riccò's ban by as much as Emanuele Sella's back in the day. CONI felt at the time that while Sella had been open and honest about his supply chain, Riccò had basically given them some names they already knew about in the name of appearing co-operative. The general world out there knows that Russia has problems with doping and has done for years. When there's the news of new doping stories and the only names that come out are Russian or other ex-Soviet state small fry, the response is usually more to roll one's eyes than to congratulate the IOC, WADA or the relevant sporting authority on their strong anti-doping work. "Oh, the Russians still stuck in the old ways," or "oh, the Russians still haven't learned how to hide it." It isn't a potentially unpopular decision across much of the world or potentially dangerous for profitability of the sport like going after, say, Jamaican athletics, and calling out the Russians for doping is pretty low-hanging fruit and some recent moves in anti-doping such as the meldonium fiasco seemed to have been directed at the Russians, and that entire affair obviously only served to further reinforce the stereotype. It's the same reason only the cyclists got named publicly out of Operación Puerto. "There's no danger in the public knowing about the cyclists because everybody already believes cycling is full of dopers." So while the Russian team has engaged in wide-scale sporting fraud, across several sports and their relevant authorities, covering a great many athletes, at the same time I'm not going to go around celebrating like this is a great victory for anti-doping and clean sport.

But at the same time, you shouldn't get to complain about a witch hunt if you are actually a witch.


Well said Libertine as always.

People here are arguing 2 different things. IOC/WADA's clear obsession to target Russians over other countries/institutes is obvious, but in return that should not take away the fact Russians are clearly to be blamed.
bambino
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07 Dec 2017 11:00

Simon Jenkins pretty much hits the nail on the head in this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/06/russian-sport-corrupt-olympics

I was unsure if this belongs here or in the political thread, both really. Apologises if it's been posted before.
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

07 Dec 2017 13:16

King Boonen wrote:Simon Jenkins pretty much hits the nail on the head in this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/06/russian-sport-corrupt-olympics

I was unsure if this belongs here or in the political thread, both really. Apologises if it's been posted before.
Jenkins is one of those British hacks who just gets on my wick. He's more than happy to be a cheerleader but every now and then comes out and says what everyone else has been saying about what a mess everything is.
User avatar fmk_RoI
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Re: Re:

07 Dec 2017 13:27

fmk_RoI wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Simon Jenkins pretty much hits the nail on the head in this article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/06/russian-sport-corrupt-olympics

I was unsure if this belongs here or in the political thread, both really. Apologises if it's been posted before.
Jenkins is one of those British hacks who just gets on my wick. He's more than happy to be a cheerleader but every now and then comes out and says what everyone else has been saying about what a mess everything is.


Can't disagree with that.
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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08 Dec 2017 15:12

Setting aside the inherent silliness of the IOC pointing the corruption finger at anyone, Russia needed to get the boot from these games for Sochi, if only for the fact that Putin probably had Sinev and Kamayev assassinated to hide the bodies, and for having publicly threatened to shoot Rodchenkov.

Sport is one thing, but targeted political killings are an entirely different game.
Bolder
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Re:

09 Dec 2017 10:42

Bolder wrote:Setting aside the inherent silliness of the IOC pointing the corruption finger at anyone, Russia needed to get the boot from these games for Sochi, if only for the fact that Putin probably had Sinev and Kamayev assassinated to hide the bodies, and for having publicly threatened to shoot Rodchenkov.

Sport is one thing, but targeted political killings are an entirely different game.

That's a pretty wild mis-characterization of the events! Sinev's cause of death wasn't released, but Kamayev had a massive heart attack after going x-country skiing. Tayagachev, head of Russia's Olympic Committee said that "Rodchenkov should be shot for lying". An emotional response along the lines of all the politicians calling for Snowden to be hanged.

Frankly, it would be great to have some kind of "reasoned decision", so that we can all look at the evidence that was provided so that we can decide for ourselves if the ban is an appropriate response, or just a political attack by the west.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

09 Dec 2017 12:13

ScienceIsCool wrote:
Bolder wrote:Setting aside the inherent silliness of the IOC pointing the corruption finger at anyone, Russia needed to get the boot from these games for Sochi, if only for the fact that Putin probably had Sinev and Kamayev assassinated to hide the bodies, and for having publicly threatened to shoot Rodchenkov.

Sport is one thing, but targeted political killings are an entirely different game.

That's a pretty wild mis-characterization of the events! Sinev's cause of death wasn't released, but Kamayev had a massive heart attack after going x-country skiing. Tayagachev, head of Russia's Olympic Committee said that "Rodchenkov should be shot for lying". An emotional response along the lines of all the politicians calling for Snowden to be hanged.

Frankly, it would be great to have some kind of "reasoned decision", so that we can all look at the evidence that was provided so that we can decide for ourselves if the ban is an appropriate response, or just a political attack by the west.

John Swanson


I think it is both, enough evidence for the west to make bold political move.
bambino
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Re: Re:

09 Dec 2017 13:52

ScienceIsCool wrote:
Bolder wrote:Setting aside the inherent silliness of the IOC pointing the corruption finger at anyone, Russia needed to get the boot from these games for Sochi, if only for the fact that Putin probably had Sinev and Kamayev assassinated to hide the bodies, and for having publicly threatened to shoot Rodchenkov.

Sport is one thing, but targeted political killings are an entirely different game.

That's a pretty wild mis-characterization of the events! Sinev's cause of death wasn't released, but Kamayev had a massive heart attack after going x-country skiing. Tayagachev, head of Russia's Olympic Committee said that "Rodchenkov should be shot for lying". An emotional response along the lines of all the politicians calling for Snowden to be hanged.

Frankly, it would be great to have some kind of "reasoned decision", so that we can all look at the evidence that was provided so that we can decide for ourselves if the ban is an appropriate response, or just a political attack by the west.

John Swanson



Exactamente. Wasn't it Hillary Clinto who called for Assange to be 'droned,' last year??? And what happened to Seth Rich? Anyway, I don't want to steer too far away from this topic.
BullsFan22
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