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CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

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Re:

12 Nov 2018 15:10

samhocking wrote:Is there a WADA rule for that? All cycling doctors would have Corticosteroids within their workplace for example. Is it not simply the prohibited substance has to be in relation to an athlete to be against the rules as per the WADA code below covering Support Staff:

2.6.2 Possession by an Athlete Support Person
In-Competition of any Prohibited Substance or
any Prohibited Method, or Possession by an
Athlete Support Person Out-of-Competition of
any Prohibited Substance or any Prohibited
Method which is prohibited Out-of-Competition
in connection with an Athlete
, Competition or
training, unless the Athlete Support Person
establishes that the Possession is consistent
with a TUE granted to an Athlete in accordance
with Article 4.4 or other acceptable justification.


The rule seems to suggest possession of prohibited substance in competition is an offence, but possession of a prohibited substance out of competition would need to be in connection with an Athlete, a compeition or training athletes? So if Freeman was ordering for someone not an athlete, it's not a WADA sanctionable offence, but would be a GMC issue and why GMC are opening a medical tribunal for him.


And or course UKAD might need to follow carefully how it is proved in the tribunal that the testosterone was possessed by Freeman for other persons than athletes. Of course in case they found out it was ordered by and delivered to Freeman intentionally.
bambino
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Re:

12 Nov 2018 16:58

samhocking wrote:Originally, it was Fit 4 Sport refused to cooperate with British Cycling to confirm the letter stating they had sent the Testosterone in error. Matt Lawton then later confirmed Fit 4 Sport had cooperated with UKAD and I thought Sapstead confirmed this is what happened and why the Testosterone story went no further as the letter got confirmed.
However, since GMC got involved after UKAD closed the case against Freeman in March, it now seems the story is now the Testosterone was actually ordered on purpose and/or received on purpose, but Freeman's need for the Testosterone was not for riders but some other purpose and this would therefore be against GMC principles and of course Fit 4 Sport are not a licenced medicine supplier either.
I might have my wires cross, but wasn't Viagra alleged to be in the package too suggesting Freeman was treating someone privately with testosterone and viagra?


Interesting to note that British Cycling are 'co-complainants' giving rise to the GMC case. Would part explain the story that Freeman was found to have ordered the patches intentionally but not for riders, hence the reason UKAD thought it was not something to be dealt with under their jurisdiction but of interest to the GMC.
brownbobby
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Re: Re:

12 Nov 2018 17:28

brownbobby wrote:
samhocking wrote:Originally, it was Fit 4 Sport refused to cooperate with British Cycling to confirm the letter stating they had sent the Testosterone in error. Matt Lawton then later confirmed Fit 4 Sport had cooperated with UKAD and I thought Sapstead confirmed this is what happened and why the Testosterone story went no further as the letter got confirmed.
However, since GMC got involved after UKAD closed the case against Freeman in March, it now seems the story is now the Testosterone was actually ordered on purpose and/or received on purpose, but Freeman's need for the Testosterone was not for riders but some other purpose and this would therefore be against GMC principles and of course Fit 4 Sport are not a licenced medicine supplier either.
I might have my wires cross, but wasn't Viagra alleged to be in the package too suggesting Freeman was treating someone privately with testosterone and viagra?


Interesting to note that British Cycling are 'co-complainants' giving rise to the GMC case. Would part explain the story that Freeman was found to have ordered the patches intentionally but not for riders, hence the reason UKAD thought it was not something to be dealt with under their jurisdiction but of interest to the GMC.


yup...the hapless Freeman...the only pro doc in cycling history to order PEDS but not for his riders.... love it :D :D

In other news, I really did get £10m from some Nigerian guy :lol:
gillan1969
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

12 Nov 2018 17:33

...of course would be even better if the Viagra was being used for weight loss...'Froomey' and team mates holed-up in a Tenerife mountain retreat....with loads of testo and loads of viagra....now there is a image I would rather banish from my mind.... :D :D
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

12 Nov 2018 17:59

samhocking wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
samhocking wrote:There's nothing to defend yet? I know the GMC already completed their investigation into Freeman which started in March and completed last month or whenever it was. All i'm saying is, if all GMC & UKAD have after that, is a GMC medical tribunal for Freeman, there's not much going on in terms of doping. Nothing has changed in terms of riders being involved and won't be if it's a GMC tribunal after an 8 month investigation by UKAD & GMC.


perhaps no one has identified the fire yet sam but the smoke just keeps on billowing and billowing..... :D


Been smoking like this for 20 years now though and nada in terms of concrete doping like is typical in cyclings past. Perhaps that's why I'm not a believer in anything being in this story, or bored?


Sam, I respect your effort on behalf of Sky but I have to observe that you’re working very hard for someone who’s bored and thinks there is nothing to see here?
Jacques (7 ch)
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Re: Re:

12 Nov 2018 18:56

brownbobby wrote:
samhocking wrote:Originally, it was Fit 4 Sport refused to cooperate with British Cycling to confirm the letter stating they had sent the Testosterone in error. Matt Lawton then later confirmed Fit 4 Sport had cooperated with UKAD and I thought Sapstead confirmed this is what happened and why the Testosterone story went no further as the letter got confirmed.
However, since GMC got involved after UKAD closed the case against Freeman in March, it now seems the story is now the Testosterone was actually ordered on purpose and/or received on purpose, but Freeman's need for the Testosterone was not for riders but some other purpose and this would therefore be against GMC principles and of course Fit 4 Sport are not a licenced medicine supplier either.
I might have my wires cross, but wasn't Viagra alleged to be in the package too suggesting Freeman was treating someone privately with testosterone and viagra?


Interesting to note that British Cycling are 'co-complainants' giving rise to the GMC case. Would part explain the story that Freeman was found to have ordered the patches intentionally but not for riders, hence the reason UKAD thought it was not something to be dealt with under their jurisdiction but of interest to the GMC.


When I see these type of events my immediate thought is fraud - Reckon there's been more than one doctor/sports scientist whose ordered substances for other uses - Have a slack admin system and its achievable.
yaco
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Re: Re:

12 Nov 2018 22:25

yaco
When I see these type of events my immediate thought is fraud - Reckon there's been more than one doctor/sports scientist whose ordered substances for other uses - Have a slack admin system and its achievable.


There was, if I remeber correctly, insinuations that Simon Cope's alleged travels around the UK were "expenses padding".

Surely, if the doc was not ordering testosterone for riders, then he would not want it any where near BC/Sky? :confused:
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
User avatar Robert5091
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13 Nov 2018 08:06

Cope more or less admitted to DCMS the trips were faux expenses and not real journeys.
samhocking
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Re: Re:

13 Nov 2018 08:15

Robert5091 wrote:
yaco
When I see these type of events my immediate thought is fraud - Reckon there's been more than one doctor/sports scientist whose ordered substances for other uses - Have a slack admin system and its achievable.


There was, if I remeber correctly, insinuations that Simon Cope's alleged travels around the UK were "expenses padding".

Surely, if the doc was not ordering testosterone for riders, then he would not want it any where near BC/Sky? :confused:


Maybe that was his mistake...he meant to order them to be delivered to his home address, but they came to his work address instead...

I made that mistake once, ordered some new Zipp wheels, should have come to my work address to avoid my wife knowing i was spending her housekeeping money on bike parts again, but they came to my home when she was in :eek:

I had to forge a letter from Wiggle explaining that what i really ordered was zip ties, not Zipp wheels :D
brownbobby
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13 Nov 2018 09:40

Freeman has maintained throughout and with his Dan Roan interview that he can explain what happened to clear this all up, but hasn't been able to say anything while the case was reviewed by GMC since March.
samhocking
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Re: Re:

13 Nov 2018 10:49

brownbobby wrote:
Robert5091 wrote:
yaco
When I see these type of events my immediate thought is fraud - Reckon there's been more than one doctor/sports scientist whose ordered substances for other uses - Have a slack admin system and its achievable.


There was, if I remeber correctly, insinuations that Simon Cope's alleged travels around the UK were "expenses padding".

Surely, if the doc was not ordering testosterone for riders, then he would not want it any where near BC/Sky? :confused:


Maybe that was his mistake...he meant to order them to be delivered to his home address, but they came to his work address instead...

I made that mistake once, ordered some new Zipp wheels, should have come to my work address to avoid my wife knowing i was spending her housekeeping money on bike parts again, but they came to my home when she was in :eek:

I had to forge a letter from Wiggle explaining that what i really ordered was zip ties, not Zipp wheels :D



Your 3 scoops up Ventoux suggest she overturned your life time ban? Sr. Morgan, nao eh? :lol:
Alpe73
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Re: Re:

13 Nov 2018 11:43

brownbobby wrote:
Robert5091 wrote:
yaco
When I see these type of events my immediate thought is fraud - Reckon there's been more than one doctor/sports scientist whose ordered substances for other uses - Have a slack admin system and its achievable.


There was, if I remeber correctly, insinuations that Simon Cope's alleged travels around the UK were "expenses padding".

Surely, if the doc was not ordering testosterone for riders, then he would not want it any where near BC/Sky? :confused:


Maybe that was his mistake...he meant to order them to be delivered to his home address, but they came to his work address instead...

I made that mistake once, ordered some new Zipp wheels, should have come to my work address to avoid my wife knowing i was spending her housekeeping money on bike parts again, but they came to my home when she was in :eek:

I had to forge a letter from Wiggle explaining that what i really ordered was zip ties, not Zipp wheels :D


Post of the Day! :lol:
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
User avatar Robert5091
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Re:

13 Nov 2018 11:50

samhocking wrote:Freeman has maintained throughout and with his Dan Roan interview that he can explain what happened to clear this all up, but hasn't been able to say anything while the case was reviewed by GMC since March.


Sounds like Trump's "my tax-returns are under audit" excuse. :rolleyes:
There's also the 55 vials of triamcinolone in BC's stash that's a problem.
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
User avatar Robert5091
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14 Nov 2018 11:32

It's not illegal under WADA rules to have a billion vials of Triamcinolone out of competition. Most team doctors will
use it to treat injured riders. That's it's most common use cycling. In Tennis they even inject the players with it on live TV lol!
samhocking
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Re:

14 Nov 2018 11:45

samhocking wrote:It's not illegal under WADA rules to have a billion vials of Triamcinolone out of competition. Most team doctors will
use it to treat injured riders. That's it's most common use cycling. In Tennis they even inject the players with it on live TV lol!


The discussion is about an athlete support person having banned substances on premises and how this can lead to an AFF - Triamcinolone is not part of the discussion.
yaco
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14 Nov 2018 12:58

It was a reply to Robert5091 saying the triamcinolone stored is a problem. It's basically not, because it's not a WADA violation to store it or use it out of competition from his surgery in the velodrome.

In terms of Freeman ordering Testosterone (if that's the case), that isn't against WADA rules either, but could be under GMC's if unlicenced for example. As we know, it has to be linked to an athlete out of competition to be against WADA code 2.6.2:

2.6.2 Possession by an Athlete Support Person
In-Competition of any Prohibited Substance or
any Prohibited Method, or Possession by an
Athlete Support Person Out-of-Competition of
any Prohibited Substance or any Prohibited
Method which is prohibited Out-of-Competition
in connection with an Athlete
, Competition or
training, unless the Athlete Support Person
establishes that the Possession is consistent
with a TUE granted to an Athlete in accordance
with Article 4.4 or other acceptable justification.

GMC is a medical, not anti-doping body. They may well have power to link the testosterone to an athlete, but we don't even know how/why/if the testosterone got ordered yet, letalone any athletes involved. From Freemans comments he seemed confident it was simple to explain. We wait for next year to find out if it is.
samhocking
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14 Nov 2018 14:24

Yep, it was a good thing he had no records. :D
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/richard-freeman-resigns-from-british-cycling/
The Sunday Times reported that UKAD established that sixty to seventy 40mg vials of triamcinolone were delivered to the Manchester velodrome in 2011 as well, though no medical records have ever been produced to justify such a quantity. In March Team Sky confirmed to Cyclingnews that Freeman had administered corticoidsteriods to staff of both the WorldTour team and British Cycling, however no medical records have been been provided with Freeman claiming that his laptop was later stolen and no back-up records record.


https://cyclingtips.com/2017/04/interview-michael-rasmussen-talks-tues-marginal-gains-outer-edge-potential/
Interview: Michael Rasmussen talks TUEs, marginal gains, and the outer edge of potential

Michael Rasmussen’s voice dips in and out as the connection stutters, but the message is clear. Fifty-five vials of triamcinolone — the substance Bradley Wiggins used to treat pollen allergies before the 2011 and 2012 Tours de France, and before the 2013 Giro d’Italia — is a year’s supply for a pro cycling team.
...
“I would use maybe two vials [of triamcinolone] for the Tour de France,” Rasmussen says. “We would just make up a reason to get it. A tendonitis in the knee or elbow, there could be many reasons to justify the use of corticosteroids.”

And would the Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) come from Dr. Geert Leinders, the former Rabobank doctor who worked with Team Sky in 2011 and 2012? “From any one of the three or four Rabobank doctors,” Rasmussen says. “Whoever was around at the time.”
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
User avatar Robert5091
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14 Nov 2018 14:30

None of that is related to it being illegal for a team doctor to store triamcinolone out of competition. The rules allow it whatever sub-story you relate to it.
samhocking
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Re:

14 Nov 2018 17:53

samhocking wrote:It was a reply to Robert5091 saying the triamcinolone stored is a problem. It's basically not, because it's not a WADA violation to store it or use it out of competition from his surgery in the velodrome.

In terms of Freeman ordering Testosterone (if that's the case), that isn't against WADA rules either, but could be under GMC's if unlicenced for example. As we know, it has to be linked to an athlete out of competition to be against WADA code 2.6.2:

2.6.2 Possession by an Athlete Support Person
In-Competition of any Prohibited Substance or
any Prohibited Method, or Possession by an
Athlete Support Person Out-of-Competition of
any Prohibited Substance or any Prohibited
Method which is prohibited Out-of-Competition
in connection with an Athlete
, Competition or
training, unless the Athlete Support Person
establishes that the Possession is consistent
with a TUE granted to an Athlete in accordance
with Article 4.4 or other acceptable justification.

GMC is a medical, not anti-doping body. They may well have power to link the testosterone to an athlete, but we don't even know how/why/if the testosterone got ordered yet, letalone any athletes involved. From Freemans comments he seemed confident it was simple to explain. We wait for next year to find out if it is.


I re-emphasise it's against WADA rules for an athlete support person to order on have on their premises banned substances while they are working under the WADA Code - With the 'jiffy bag' issue it was never a case of athletes being charged unless there was clear documentary evidence of which there wasn't - The only chance UKAD had was to pin Dr Freeman ordering banned substances and having them onsite.
yaco
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14 Nov 2018 19:33

Maybe. If GMC link the testosterone to athletes, it will then be handed back to UKAD who will then be able to satisfy Code 2.6.2. Until such time, no riders are associated with the testosterone order or Triamcinolone store, so considered within the rules.
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