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Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

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Re: Re:

26 Apr 2017 20:15

fmk_RoI wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:The evidence was offered to ToreBear specifically. Most of us cynics (realists IMO) don't need examples and accept it as fact...but some people are optimists. And evidence is often quite useful for discussions actually...
Colour me amused. You skim the net for 'evidence', you don't try to check it before posting it (both while mocking the "typical lazy journalistic fact checking" standards of others), when challenged on it you dismiss evidence as being irrelevant and still you think you're better that people like ToreBear...

I'm afraid realists do need examples. So let me ask you again about spending. You say more is needed. Question one: if the current spend isn't enough, what is it and what should it be? Question two: I presented to you evidence that suggests first, we don't know enough about what is currently being spent, and second there is a lack of evidence linking increased spending with better results - do you dismiss this too or do you now accept that simply accepting as fact the 'evidence' supporting WADA's demand for more money is pretty silly?


Tilting at windmills I'm afraid. Building straw men. It's silly to suggest I think I'm better than ToreBear. I'm glad they at least took my post in the spirit intended (which was a friendly one).

I offered an opinion to ToreBear as to why I think they haven't proven their argument, whilst acknowledging I couldn't prove they are definitively wrong. Ultimately it comes down to opinion. However, in agreement with others here, I think what strongly strengthens the opinion that most riders are doping is the past, the ex-riders testimony, the speeds, power data, the corruption and so on (others here have covered these things). It's mine and others inductive & abductive reasoning vs ToreBears deductive reasoning. ToreBears theory (premise) that the bio-passport has caused a big drop in doping numbers is, in my opinion, incorrect - 'wishful thinking'. I think the premise is incorrect and using deduction itself is incorrect. That's it. Full stop. I then offered some links I thought they would find interesting, as points of discussion etc., not foolproof evidence for a definitive case I'm not even making (read: personal opinion, points of discussion etc)

The economics? Interesting. Do I know how to use Google? Yes.

The reasoning method above answers your blather and straw man about me dismissing evidence, blindly accepting WADA's call for more money etc., etc...
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

26 Apr 2017 20:24

ToreBear wrote:
Thanks for the link. Yes you could say I was wrong, about markers and that would be correct. What actually seems to be happening is:
Any new medicines found to have performance-enhancing characteristics will be highlighted to WADA and confidential scientific data relating to them will be transferred by GSK so they can begin work on detection methods.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2011-07/wada-signs-historic-agreement-with-glaxosmithkline

Me mixing up that and markers is my mistake.
And thanks for the cyclingnews link, it supports my theory of the epo test improving.


Yeah indeed it's certainly very interesting that WADA and big pharma are working together, as per your link and quote. Maybe they will get ahead of the doping... but I'm skeptical, with the history we know about in the sport etc.

Glad my link was useful. That new improved epo test is interesting, it's apparent ability to detect micro-dosing... why it's not being used more, not being better funded, obviously raises questions though.

Cheers.
Dan2016
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Re:

26 Apr 2017 21:33

therealthing wrote:Nice to see him back so quickly after his horrific kidney tear:
http://www.velonews.com/2017/04/news/gilbert-make-return-weekend_436532

That's surprising news. I wonder how long it would usually take to recover, if a kidney laceration is bad enough to cause one to pee blood.

The only facts we seem to have, are that Gilbert peed blood (somewhere upthread), that we're told it's a result of a kidney tear and that apparently he's able to race again within two weeks after the injury. I'd love to hear from someone with a medical background. All I seem to be able to find about it, is that the average recovery time from kidney laceration is six weeks. This does not take into account the severity of the injury, though, and in this particular case we actually do know a little about the severity.
HSNHSN
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Re: Re:

26 Apr 2017 23:26

HSNHSN wrote:
therealthing wrote:Nice to see him back so quickly after his horrific kidney tear:
http://www.velonews.com/2017/04/news/gilbert-make-return-weekend_436532

That's surprising news. I wonder how long it would usually take to recover, if a kidney laceration is bad enough to cause one to pee blood.

The only facts we seem to have, are that Gilbert peed blood (somewhere upthread), that we're told it's a result of a kidney tear and that apparently he's able to race again within two weeks after the injury. I'd love to hear from someone with a medical background. All I seem to be able to find about it, is that the average recovery time from kidney laceration is six weeks. This does not take into account the severity of the injury, though, and in this particular case we actually do know a little about the severity.


I wouldn't go so far as to call Gilbert peeing blood a fact. One should probably use the word "alleged" when referencing any professional cycling related incident. My theory: Cookson just probably told his team to sideline the rider after glowing at Amstel (and Flanders, hence missing Paris-Roubaix despite stellar form).
Huapango
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27 Apr 2017 00:24

The conspiracy theory seems a bit of a stretch IMO, but I did a quick google out of curiosity. The original story seemed to be ''kidney injury'', not ''tear'' or ''laceration''. Apparently minor injury is often impact induced bruising, as in, impact from a fall. Blood in urine on its own does not indicate severity; it often happens with just minor bruising. A couple of weeks recovery doesn't sound unusual:

(other websites just say bed rest, not staying in hospital as below)
For Mild cases of kidney bruising, the patient is only needed to take lots of bed rest until bleeding has receded – usually for 1 to 2 weeks – while under the observation of a medical professional (in a hospital of course) who monitors the patient closely for any signs of kidney failure.

Careful observation and control of fluid intakes also forms part of the treatment for a bruised kidney. It is usually just a matter of a short time – usually about a week – before such cases of kidney bruises heal on their own.


http://www.treatcurefast.com/bruises/heal-bruises/bruised-kidney-symptoms-treatment-pain-fall/
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

27 Apr 2017 03:46

Huapango wrote:My theory: Cookson just probably told his team to sideline the rider after glowing at Amstel (and Flanders, hence missing Paris-Roubaix despite stellar form).
My theory also. I mean, you scorch Flanders and take a pass on Roubaix? Makes no sense. If he dismantles the field at Flanders he'll be in the mix at Roubaix bare minimum.
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Re: Re:

27 Apr 2017 11:11

Dan2016 wrote:Tilting at windmills I'm afraid. Building straw men. It's silly to suggest I think I'm better than ToreBear. I'm glad they at least took my post in the spirit intended (which was a friendly one).

I offered an opinion to ToreBear as to why I think they haven't proven their argument, whilst acknowledging I couldn't prove they are definitively wrong. Ultimately it comes down to opinion. However, in agreement with others here, I think what strongly strengthens the opinion that most riders are doping is the past, the ex-riders testimony, the speeds, power data, the corruption and so on (others here have covered these things). It's mine and others inductive & abductive reasoning vs ToreBears deductive reasoning. ToreBears theory (premise) that the bio-passport has caused a big drop in doping numbers is, in my opinion, incorrect - 'wishful thinking'. I think the premise is incorrect and using deduction itself is incorrect. That's it. Full stop. I then offered some links I thought they would find interesting, as points of discussion etc., not foolproof evidence for a definitive case I'm not even making (read: personal opinion, points of discussion etc)

The economics? Interesting. Do I know how to use Google? Yes.

The reasoning method above answers your blather and straw man about me dismissing evidence, blindly accepting WADA's call for more money etc., etc...


So, in summary, you're saying that while you know that not enough is being spent on anti-doping you don't know how much is actually being spent on anti-doping?

Ok, well, how much would be enough then, will you at least answer than for me, please? Would $300 million be enough?
User avatar fmk_RoI
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Re: Re:

27 Apr 2017 18:15

fmk_RoI wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:Tilting at windmills I'm afraid. Building straw men. It's silly to suggest I think I'm better than ToreBear. I'm glad they at least took my post in the spirit intended (which was a friendly one).

I offered an opinion to ToreBear as to why I think they haven't proven their argument, whilst acknowledging I couldn't prove they are definitively wrong. Ultimately it comes down to opinion. However, in agreement with others here, I think what strongly strengthens the opinion that most riders are doping is the past, the ex-riders testimony, the speeds, power data, the corruption and so on (others here have covered these things). It's mine and others inductive & abductive reasoning vs ToreBears deductive reasoning. ToreBears theory (premise) that the bio-passport has caused a big drop in doping numbers is, in my opinion, incorrect - 'wishful thinking'. I think the premise is incorrect and using deduction itself is incorrect. That's it. Full stop. I then offered some links I thought they would find interesting, as points of discussion etc., not foolproof evidence for a definitive case I'm not even making (read: personal opinion, points of discussion etc)

The economics? Interesting. Do I know how to use Google? Yes.

The reasoning method above answers your blather and straw man about me dismissing evidence, blindly accepting WADA's call for more money etc., etc...


So, in summary, you're saying that while you know that not enough is being spent on anti-doping you don't know how much is actually being spent on anti-doping?

Ok, well, how much would be enough then, will you at least answer than for me, please? Would $300 million be enough?


$300 million is not enough for WADA and their cronies - These agencies always want more money - The Anti-Doping movement is greedy.
yaco
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27 Apr 2017 18:57

Money isn't the answer. The answer is pulling anti-doping power from the UCI and having a completely independent body doing it. Not having a bunch of UCI cronies running a falsely independent organization in the same building.

I'll not hold my breath.
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14 Apr 2019 15:22

Well that illness that forced him to abandon Flanders certainly cleared up quickly!
therealthing
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Re: Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

14 Apr 2019 16:51

Take one look at QS medical team and you'll have your answer.
Der Effe
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15 Apr 2019 07:25

exactly! ...do fish swim....................do those steppers win.................

and i loved seeing phil gil win.............
User avatar ebandit
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Re: Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

15 Apr 2019 09:08

Der Effe wrote:Take one look at QS medical team and you'll have your answer.


So where was the QS medical team before Flanders? Sometimes this place is ridiculous. I loved seeing Phil win too. Just enjoy it for what it is. As legit as anything else you will see this season.
Cookster15
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Re:

15 Apr 2019 11:04

therealthing wrote:Well that illness that forced him to abandon Flanders certainly cleared up quickly!
Whenever I come down with a slight stomache ache it's usually at least three months before I'm even able to walk to the shops again, let alone ride my bike. So yes, clearly, Gilbert coming down with tummy trouble that caused him to abandon Dwars - and skip the Ronde three days on - yet still being able to win Paris-Roubaix a week and a half later, that's pas normal and only a complete idiot wouldn't see it as proof of DQS's massive doping programme.
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Re: Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

15 Apr 2019 11:34

Cookster15 wrote:
Der Effe wrote:Take one look at QS medical team and you'll have your answer.


So where was the QS medical team before Flanders? Sometimes this place is ridiculous. I loved seeing Phil win too. Just enjoy it for what it is. As legit as anything else you will see this season.


Dopers can get sick too. Or is there some deeper meaning in your post?
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Re: Re:

15 Apr 2019 11:36

fmk_RoI wrote:
therealthing wrote:Well that illness that forced him to abandon Flanders certainly cleared up quickly!
Whenever I come down with a slight stomache ache it's usually at least three months before I'm even able to walk to the shops again, let alone ride my bike. So yes, clearly, Gilbert coming down with tummy trouble that caused him to abandon Dwars - and skip the Ronde three days on - yet still being able to win Paris-Roubaix a week and a half later, that's pas normal and only a complete idiot wouldn't see it as proof of DQS's massive doping programme.


Clearly being sick a week before a major race is no hindrance to winning if one is prepared the right way.
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Re: Is Philippe Gilbert Doping?

15 Apr 2019 13:33

Cookster15 wrote:
Der Effe wrote:Take one look at QS medical team and you'll have your answer.


So where was the QS medical team before Flanders? Sometimes this place is ridiculous. I loved seeing Phil win too. Just enjoy it for what it is. As legit as anything else you will see this season.

Well they won most other one day races before that as well...
therealthing
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15 Apr 2019 15:32

I think he's definitely on some new program including a few bags of blood every now and then
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Re:

15 Apr 2019 21:43

masking_agent wrote:I think he's definitely on some new program including a few bags of blood every now and then


How could anyone on the outside possibly have a clue what if anything he's on? Why a "new program"? He's been at a higher level before.

Cycling isn't a simple equation of dope = wins. People still have ups and downs in form.
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Re: Re:

17 Apr 2019 15:40

red_flanders wrote:
masking_agent wrote:I think he's definitely on some new program including a few bags of blood every now and then


How could anyone on the outside possibly have a clue what if anything he's on? Why a "new program"? He's been at a higher level before.

Cycling isn't a simple equation of dope = wins. People still have ups and downs in form.
And as well as ups and downs let's not forget that Gilbert had five years with Jim Ochowicz at BMC, where careers went to hibernate.

(Though doubtlessly someone'll pop up to say this was time on the naughty step, the UCI imposing a Secret Ban on him by making him ride for BMC.)
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