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Primož Roglič

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Re: Re:

14 May 2019 21:24

Eyeballs Out wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
Bolder wrote:It's normal to question a guy like Roglic, who in the past 4 years has seemingly come out of nowhere. But plenty of riders born strapped to the pedals have also been shown to be dopers. I think -- let's see how he does in the rest of the Giro. It's not as if his start this year wasn't preceded by progression and a lot of "wait till this guy figures it out."

Regarding the "big block of altitude training," I know what Red means -- it's the old "let's go to Gran Canaria, or the mountains of Colombia, where no one can find us, not even the vampires." Out of sight, out of mind, at least in the bad old days.


Yes, I agree with you, and will be very interested to see how this develops. I would only question the "bad old days" comment. I don't really see the change at the same level many others seem to assume or believe. There has been rampant absurdity at all points in the sport's timeline, it just morphs into new methods and faces.


No doubt the teams and riders strive just as hard as they ever have to bypass the controls and as a result become more sophisticated over time to avoid tripping an adverse finding. This is normal progression.

But the controls are still having a massive effect and climbing times are proof. None more so than Alpe D'Huez last year when the untouchable Sky train still only rode 41:30. That's over 4 1/2 minutes slower than Pantani's record ! In distance that's about 1 mile / 1.6km back down the mountain!

The times on the one climb that everyone seems to use as a reference appear to be so slow but on most other climbs appear to be very fast. Hmmm


"Appears". Such as? That is a subjective opinion only. I use the Alpe because it is always raced hard. You cannot refute the evidence of last year Sky set such a pace on the climb no other rider could mount any successful attack. If was effectively a team time trial. And still that only resulted in 41:30. Objective evidence. Hmmm.
Cookster15
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Re: Re:

14 May 2019 21:29

Cookster15 wrote:
Eyeballs Out wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:
red_flanders wrote:
Bolder wrote:It's normal to question a guy like Roglic, who in the past 4 years has seemingly come out of nowhere. But plenty of riders born strapped to the pedals have also been shown to be dopers. I think -- let's see how he does in the rest of the Giro. It's not as if his start this year wasn't preceded by progression and a lot of "wait till this guy figures it out."

Regarding the "big block of altitude training," I know what Red means -- it's the old "let's go to Gran Canaria, or the mountains of Colombia, where no one can find us, not even the vampires." Out of sight, out of mind, at least in the bad old days.


Yes, I agree with you, and will be very interested to see how this develops. I would only question the "bad old days" comment. I don't really see the change at the same level many others seem to assume or believe. There has been rampant absurdity at all points in the sport's timeline, it just morphs into new methods and faces.


No doubt the teams and riders strive just as hard as they ever have to bypass the controls and as a result become more sophisticated over time to avoid tripping an adverse finding. This is normal progression.

But the controls are still having a massive effect and climbing times are proof. None more so than Alpe D'Huez last year when the untouchable Sky train still only rode 41:30. That's over 4 1/2 minutes slower than Pantani's record ! In distance that's about 1 mile / 1.6km back down the mountain!

The times on the one climb that everyone seems to use as a reference appear to be so slow but on most other climbs appear to be very fast. Hmmm


"Appears". Such as? That is a subjective opinion only. I use the Alpe because it is always raced hard. You cannot refute the evidence of last year Sky set such a pace on the climb no other rider could mount any successful attack. If was effectively a team time trial. And still that only resulted in 41:30. Objective evidence. Hmmm.

If you're happy to consider only 10 miles every couple of years out of all the miles ridden in pro cycling then don't be surprised if you get a very misleading picture of what is going on. There's a stickied thread above if you want a bigger picture
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14 May 2019 21:41

Eyeballs out- I get that but it is also a deflection. As I stated there is no climb more prestigious than the Alpe. It is always raced hard so it is a very good sample that can reflect what is going on. It has never been raced harder than 2018 for the reason I stated - the Sky train. Thomas was delivered the win because Sky set an infernal tempo - the entire 13.8km. But still a snails pace of 41:30 relative to pre passport days. Your logic is typical for the clinic but I find it too presumptuous and it simply does not add up against the stop watch using a valid example. Controls are not stopping doping but they are having massive restriction on what was once possible.
If you can provide a quote from the thread above happy to change my mind.
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Re:

14 May 2019 23:59

Cookster15 wrote:Eyeballs out- I get that but it is also a deflection. As I stated there is no climb more prestigious than the Alpe. It is always raced hard so it is a very good sample that can reflect what is going on. It has never been raced harder than 2018 for the reason I stated - the Sky train. Thomas was delivered the win because Sky set an infernal tempo - the entire 13.8km. But still a snails pace of 41:30 relative to pre passport days. Your logic is typical for the clinic but I find it too presumptuous and it simply does not add up against the stop watch using a valid example. Controls are not stopping doping but they are having massive restriction on what was once possible.
If you can provide a quote from the thread above happy to change my mind.


40′ 51″ Alexander Vinokourov 2003
41′ 18″ Lance Armstrong 2003
41′ 21″ Samuel Sánchez 2011
41′ 30″ Alberto Contador 2011
41′ 46″ Cadel Evans 2008

Anyone clean on that list? Nope. You can't look at one climb, too many tactics involved, to many variables such as wind and previous climbs, or how it was raced. It is not always raced full on. Sure doping has been curtailed to some extent, but it's still obviously happening.

I'll be curious to see what Roglič does over the course of this Giro. I'm skeptical as heck right now but I could be wrong. If he continues as he's going now, there isn't much doubt.
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Re: Primož Roglič

15 May 2019 00:48

IzzyStradlin wrote:Roglic is a totally obvious Ricco-level charger.


I agree, but I don't think it would behoove anyone within the sport to point it out. I could be completely wrong, but a positive test from Roglic would just bring the tent down. No one except high stakes bettors with a chip on their shoulders wants to see that happen.
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Re: Re:

15 May 2019 10:02

red_flanders wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Eyeballs out- I get that but it is also a deflection. As I stated there is no climb more prestigious than the Alpe. It is always raced hard so it is a very good sample that can reflect what is going on. It has never been raced harder than 2018 for the reason I stated - the Sky train. Thomas was delivered the win because Sky set an infernal tempo - the entire 13.8km. But still a snails pace of 41:30 relative to pre passport days. Your logic is typical for the clinic but I find it too presumptuous and it simply does not add up against the stop watch using a valid example. Controls are not stopping doping but they are having massive restriction on what was once possible.
If you can provide a quote from the thread above happy to change my mind.


40′ 51″ Alexander Vinokourov 2003
41′ 18″ Lance Armstrong 2003
41′ 21″ Samuel Sánchez 2011
41′ 30″ Alberto Contador 2011
41′ 46″ Cadel Evans 2008

Anyone clean on that list? Nope. You can't look at one climb, too many tactics involved, to many variables such as wind and previous climbs, or how it was raced. It is not always raced full on. Sure doping has been curtailed to some extent, but it's still obviously happening.

I'll be curious to see what Roglič does over the course of this Giro. I'm skeptical as heck right now but I could be wrong. If he continues as he's going now, there isn't much doubt.


2018 was raced full on all the way - I explained why, Sky train.
2003 is pre passport.
41 minutes is borderline depending on the rider but not super suspicious IMO. What kind of watts is that?
Armstrong 2003 was his weakest Tour by far. 41 minutes is a snails pace compared to 38:30 (Floyd 2006).
Glad you agree on the bold bit this was my point. I was just tempering the usual clinic hype.
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Re: Primož Roglič

15 May 2019 16:14

Cookster15 wrote:
IzzyStradlin wrote:Roglic is a totally obvious Ricco-level charger.


It is not possible to be a Ricco level charger in the year 2019. Sorry. That is only possible if the UCI have him on some sort of ignore list which I find extremely far fetched.


But if you're a late-comer to the sport...and on the program from the very beginning. Your biological profile could have a very impressive baseline.
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Re: Re:

15 May 2019 16:24

Cookster15 wrote:
2018 was raced full on all the way - I explained why, Sky train.
2003 is pre passport.
41 minutes is borderline depending on the rider but not super suspicious IMO. What kind of watts is that?
Armstrong 2003 was his weakest Tour by far. 41 minutes is a snails pace compared to 38:30 (Floyd 2006).
Glad you agree on the bold bit this was my point. I was just tempering the usual clinic hype.


The pre-passport is to me kind of the point. There have been dozens of incredibly suspicious and confirmed doping performances since the passport, the most high-profile of which the UCI has inexplicably decided not to prosecute.

A train means that the top riders are going slower than they can, waiting for the domestiques to burn off the pretenders. Not full on compared to a lone rider attacking, a la Pantani etc. Also note that many of the top times on the Alpe are TT times. That's full on, though obviously without the preceding mountains.

I get the sense that your view of how clean things are is quite different from mine, though this is entirely subjective. When I see a guy dominating multiple stage races all spring, like the dopers Froome and Wiggins did some years ago, and continue to dominate a GT after that, my radar goes up. If Roglič fades, then I'm less suspicious for sure. If he doesn't? Give me a break.
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15 May 2019 18:46

So he has to lose in order for you to think he's not a doper. And if he does win, he's only not a doper if he loses the minor stage races prior to the GT, which are of course normally a marker for GT success. Plus he's a doper because he's got a smile you dont like.

Brilliance.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re: Re:

15 May 2019 18:50

red_flanders wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:
2018 was raced full on all the way - I explained why, Sky train.
2003 is pre passport.
41 minutes is borderline depending on the rider but not super suspicious IMO. What kind of watts is that?
Armstrong 2003 was his weakest Tour by far. 41 minutes is a snails pace compared to 38:30 (Floyd 2006).
Glad you agree on the bold bit this was my point. I was just tempering the usual clinic hype.


The pre-passport is to me kind of the point. There have been dozens of incredibly suspicious and confirmed doping performances since the passport, the most high-profile of which the UCI has inexplicably decided not to prosecute.

A train means that the top riders are going slower than they can, waiting for the domestiques to burn off the pretenders. Not full on compared to a lone rider attacking, a la Pantani etc. Also note that many of the top times on the Alpe are TT times. That's full on, though obviously without the preceding mountains.

I get the sense that your view of how clean things are is quite different from mine, though this is entirely subjective. When I see a guy dominating multiple stage races all spring, like the dopers Froome and Wiggins did some years ago, and continue to dominate a GT after that, my radar goes up. If Roglič fades, then I'm less suspicious for sure. If he doesn't? Give me a break.


Of course our views are subjective but I do attempt to bolster mine with some valid reference points - in this case times on the Alpe. I know this is one climb of many raced and all season but it is raced hard and I don't think it has ever been raced harder from bottom to top by a team than last year. I am not aware of any headwind.

I disagree with your logic on the Sky Train. Sky's domestiques can ride at well over their FTP threshold until they drop off - they are not riding slower than they can. In Sky's case one of those "domestiques" was Chris Froome. Another Egan Bernal and also Michael Kwiatkowski who can pull huge watts for 10km of climbing. This is a huge pace and is why no climber from rival teams could attack Sky. Yet despite that consistent pace driven all the way the time wasn't particularly quick in historical terms.

Just to be clear I am very suspicious of Sky / Inneos and I think most riders and teams still dope but I think we do need to acknowledge whatever is going on now isn't providing the boosts of circa 1991 to 2009. Even 2010 Tour there was an obvious to me lower level Contador and Schleck looked more human.

But I also doubt this situation will persist the end game is genetic doping which to me is scary in the extreme. I suppose every pro would need to have their pre professional DNA mapped and stored for future reference but that is another story for another day.

On Roglic, maybe you are right if he doesn't fade. Time will tell but he is still relatively new to the sport and would be on an upwards physiological trajectory. I can't see why the UCI would be looking the other way with him either.
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15 May 2019 19:16

Domestiques ride at a pace that is not the same as a top rider attacking. If you think Froome was at his max working on that climb we rather strongly disagree. I didn't say they are riding "slower than they [the domestiques] can", they are riding slower than the team leader would if he were on his own attacking.

Any way you slice it, the time on that one climb, that one year, is as fast as known dopers have ridden it in the past. While the conclusions which can be drawn from one climb are VERY limited, that fact does NOT suggest things are cleaned up much. Yeah, they're not Pantani. Who is?

Regarding the UCI as applies to Roglič, they clearly and obviously have protected top riders from doping allegations and positives multiple times in the past. They are a Marketing and Promotions organization and behave as such. The passport is a marketing initiative, as it give the impression, real or not, that the UCI are combatting doping. If doping didn't hurt sponsorships, they would not care one whit. See the 1990's. They are not an anti-doping organization. There is no reason to think they have interest in prosecuting big names, and every reason to think they will do what they can to protect them.
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Re:

15 May 2019 19:35

red_flanders wrote:Domestiques ride at a pace that is not the same as a top rider attacking. If you think Froome was at his max working on that climb we rather strongly disagree. I didn't say they are riding "slower than they [the domestiques] can", they are riding slower than the team leader would if he were on his own attacking.

Any way you slice it, the time on that one climb, that one year, is as fast as known dopers have ridden it in the past. While the conclusions which can be drawn from one climb are VERY limited, that fact does NOT suggest things are cleaned up much. Yeah, they're not Pantani. Who is?

Regarding the UCI as applies to Roglič, they clearly and obviously have protected top riders from doping allegations and positives multiple times in the past. They are a Marketing and Promotions organization and behave as such. The passport is a marketing initiative, as it give the impression, real or not, that the UCI are combatting doping. If doping didn't hurt sponsorships, they would not care one whit. See the 1990's. They are not an anti-doping organization. There is no reason to think they have interest in prosecuting big names, and every reason to think they will do what they can to protect them.


Is Roglić really 'big enough' for the UCI and WADA and whoever else is involved at the 'top' to not bust him and suspend him? He's been redlining so far this season and his rise to where he is after actually riding a bike on a regular basis at the age of 23 is very impressive, he's obviously super talented, has won multiple times every year since he became a pro and since his first year at the world tour level just three years ago, he's had a lot of success. I don't need to list all of his accomplishments, but he's not a household name, yet.
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Re: Re:

15 May 2019 22:41

BullsFan22 wrote:
red_flanders wrote:Domestiques ride at a pace that is not the same as a top rider attacking. If you think Froome was at his max working on that climb we rather strongly disagree. I didn't say they are riding "slower than they [the domestiques] can", they are riding slower than the team leader would if he were on his own attacking.

Any way you slice it, the time on that one climb, that one year, is as fast as known dopers have ridden it in the past. While the conclusions which can be drawn from one climb are VERY limited, that fact does NOT suggest things are cleaned up much. Yeah, they're not Pantani. Who is?

Regarding the UCI as applies to Roglič, they clearly and obviously have protected top riders from doping allegations and positives multiple times in the past. They are a Marketing and Promotions organization and behave as such. The passport is a marketing initiative, as it give the impression, real or not, that the UCI are combatting doping. If doping didn't hurt sponsorships, they would not care one whit. See the 1990's. They are not an anti-doping organization. There is no reason to think they have interest in prosecuting big names, and every reason to think they will do what they can to protect them.


Is Roglić really 'big enough' for the UCI and WADA and whoever else is involved at the 'top' to not bust him and suspend him? He's been redlining so far this season and his rise to where he is after actually riding a bike on a regular basis at the age of 23 is very impressive, he's obviously super talented, has won multiple times every year since he became a pro and since his first year at the world tour level just three years ago, he's had a lot of success. I don't need to list all of his accomplishments, but he's not a household name, yet.


Fair question. Willing to wait and see on all these questions. Seems like the next big thing to me, but we'll see. I honestly don't think they're in any way interested in stopping doping except as it pertains to landing sponsors and growing revenue.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2019 16:58

red_flanders wrote:
Fair question. Willing to wait and see on all these questions. Seems like the next big thing to me, but we'll see. I honestly don't think they're in any way interested in stopping doping except as it pertains to landing sponsors and growing revenue.


"Get as big as possible as quickly as possible, so you become too big to fail before anybody realizes what happened" seems to be the winning formula these days.
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Re: Primož Roglič

19 May 2019 13:11

I have this feeling of almost the inevitable that Roglič is going to win this TT outright and absolutely smoke every other GC contender by minutes. I hope I wrong :o
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Re: Primož Roglič

19 May 2019 14:34

Ripper wrote:I have this feeling of almost the inevitable that Roglič is going to win this TT outright and absolutely smoke every other GC contender by minutes. I hope I wrong :o


well...nibs within 1 min in this tt....Roglic is the new Froome thread?
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Re: Primož Roglič

19 May 2019 14:35

Ripper wrote:I have this feeling of almost the inevitable that Roglič is going to win this TT outright and absolutely smoke every other GC contender by minutes. I hope I wrong :o

LOL :o
Sigh
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19 May 2019 16:00

Roglic taking 1minute on Nibali and Mollema is hardly surprising.

The rest was just incredibly bad.
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19 May 2019 16:38

No surprise for me.
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19 May 2019 16:40

Somebody stop me!
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