General Doping Thread.

[luckyboy]

Just like the General News Thread: if anyone has a question or a small bit of news that doesn't really need it's own thread.

Anyone know if Piepoli's suspension started in Jan 09, or if it was dated back to the Tour 08? Also, has he retired?

[aussie#1]

last i heard he was riding for a small team but that was a while ago so not sure now

[Berzin]

I have a few questions. I'm asking because I need some details that are buried in the Contador threads, but I can't wade through them all-

1) What were the levels of plasticizers found in Contadors' blood?

2) Who broke this story? Was it the German journalist who also revealed the positive clenbutarol test?

3) Was this the same journalist who got an initial flat denial about the positive test for clenbutarol from Pat McQuaid?

4) Which lab did the testing that produced the clenbutarol positive?

3) Who is officially in charge of sanctioning Contador? Is it the UCI, WADA or the Spanish Cycling Federation?

[Der_Gestreifte]

I have a few questions. I'm asking because I need some details that are buried in the Contador threads, but I can't wade through them all

1) 480 ng
2) yes
3) yes
4) "Sporthochschule Köln" aka "The Cologne Lab"
3) The Spanish Federation

[luckyboy]

Just readin Whittle's book Bad Blood (written 07), and it says..

"by the end of 06, no less than five of LA's teammates - Andreu, Hamilton, Heras, Landis and one other anonymous former US Postal rider - had either tested positive or admitted to doping"

This'll probably be pretty obvious, does anyone know who this is?


Also, how come we always hear of Italy's Olympic committee (CONI) handing out bans, rather than their cycling federation (FCI)? In Spain we always hear of RFEC, but never their Olympic committee (COE).

[NashbarShorts]

Just readin Whittle's book Bad Blood (written 07), and it says..

"by the end of 06, no less than five of LA's teammates - Andreu, Hamilton, Heras, Landis and one other anonymous former US Postal rider - had either tested positive or admitted to doping"

This'll probably be pretty obvious, does anyone know who this is?


Also, how come we always hear of Italy's Olympic committee (CONI) handing out bans, rather than their cycling federation (FCI)? In Spain we always hear of RFEC, but never their Olympic committee (COE).

Vaughters, no? He did 'confess' to Paul Kimmage, although that article was not written until the '07 Tour...

[hrotha]

I was bored and reading about the Festina affair on Wikipedia when I saw this:

November 28, 1998: The results of the analysis of the samples taken from the nine Festina riders are known and are subsequently released and revealed evidence of Human Growth Hormone, amphetamines, steroids, corticoids and Erythropoietin (EPO). In eight of the nine riders test positive for synthetic EPO. The results of the ninth rider (Christophe Moreau) were indeterminate but Moreau had already admitted use of EPO. Traces of amphetamines were found in the samples of Moreau, Pascal Hervé, Laurent Brochard and Didier Rous.

Apparently these were blood, urine and hair samples, and HGH and EPO were detected. In 1998. Am I missing something? Is there any reason why hair samples are not used for anti-doping tests?

[Race Radio]

I have a few questions. I'm asking because I need some details that are buried in the Contador threads, but I can't wade through them all-

1) What were the levels of plasticizers found in Contadors' blood?

2) Who broke this story? Was it the German journalist who also revealed the positive clenbutarol test?

3) Was this the same journalist who got an initial flat denial about the positive test for clenbutarol from Pat McQuaid?

4) Which lab did the testing that produced the clenbutarol positive?

3) Who is officially in charge of sanctioning Contador? Is it the UCI, WADA or the Spanish Cycling Federation?

FYI, the guys that broke the Contador story are the same guys who broke the Kloden/Frieburg story a while back

[The Hitch]

Just readin Whittle's book Bad Blood (written 07), and it says..

"by the end of 06, no less than five of LA's teammates - Andreu, Hamilton, Heras, Landis and one other anonymous former US Postal rider - had either tested positive or admitted to doping"

This'll probably be pretty obvious, does anyone know who this is?


Also, how come we always hear of Italy's Olympic committee (CONI) handing out bans, rather than their cycling federation (FCI)? In Spain we always hear of RFEC, but never their Olympic committee (COE).

Speaking of former US postal teammates doping, anyone saw the interview on Sky news with Barry, where he is asked about the Landis allegations and that Landis has "made claims that you doped" and he replies to the question asking about his doping with, "you know, the whole Landis situation is very unfortunate"

Guilt by omission in my eyes.

ps great idea this thread. Lets hope it doesnt descend to the usual, fanboys v haters going 40 pages as to who was the last celebrity Lance banged.

[JMBeaushrimp]

Speaking of Barry, here's a soft-ball interview from a Canadian mag...

http://www.pedalmag.com/index.php?module=Section&action=viewdetail&item_id=18191

[L'arriviste]

Here's an article featuring a little photo of Bobby Julich in his Cofidis days in 1997, getting a massage from Boguslaw Madejak who later received a one-year prison sentence for his part as a drug trafficker in the Cofidis scandal in 2004. Happy days.

[hrotha]

Interview with that guy, you know, the one with the plasticizers test
(Evil Google Translate version)

I think it's pretty discouraging to hear someone who's supposed to be in the know, in the vanguard of the fight against doping, be so naive.

...right now there's a method that, depending on the plasticizer traces found in urine tests, allows, "at a minimum, to suspect whether someone did a blood transfusion with a high probability, if not to be completely sure. And the other way around, for all those individuals with a negative test result, it allows us to say they surely have not doped with a transfusion", he added.

This assumes no one can beat the test.

"the bags in which the blood is stored must have a plasticizer to keep the red blood cells stable, so that they remain active when they're reinfused into the body", which means "they reinfuse the blood plus the plasticizers from the bag."

This assumes no other kinds of bags can exist, even though many people have posted here about not-so-new blood bags that leave no plasticizer traces.

He specified that the organism eliminates these plasticizers "in a day or two, but for that time they show up in the urine in very significant amounts"

At most, if there were no plasticizer-free bags, this would mean the riders would have to alter their transfusion schedules. No more easy rest day transfusions. Big deal.

[Frosty]

What happened to the Giro 2008 retests for CERA?:confused: I read that there were a number of suspect samples (6 riders?) but did anything ever come of them?

[theswordsman]

What happened to the Giro 2008 retests for CERA?:confused: I read that there were a number of suspect samples (6 riders?) but did anything ever come of them?

I followed the story for ages, but never saw that it actually happened. This is the last I heard of it:

Italian investigators suspect six or seven riders who competed in the 2008 Giro d’Italia of having used the third generation form of EPO, CERA, in the race, and are awaiting further confirmation.

According to the Gazzetta dello Sport, the Padua public prosecutor Benedetto Roberti had ordered 82 samples to be analysed at the Italian Olympic Committee's “Acqua Acetosa” anti-doping laboratory. These samples were seized by Italian police earlier this year, and follow on from several positive tests for CERA taken after the race.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CgvnrPba6ksJ:www.velonation.com/News/ID/2104/New-CERA-suspected-from-2008-Giro-while-undetectable-ozone-doping-pinpointed.aspx+2008+giro+d%27italia+cera&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

Since the thread is up, I'll post a quick rant about Travis Tygart's AP interview, repeated around the world with various titles including the term "flip-flop"..

But Travis Tygart, the chief executive of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, said [color="Red"]authorities must not be afraid of "bringing down our heroes" if they have cheated[/color] and wants Spain's Contador dossier fully reviewed by international bodies.

And the seven time Tour de France champion???

"Clearly what has been reported was a flip-flop -- there was a one-year agreement [ban] and then there were statements from the prime minister ... and then there is a zero sanction," Tygart said when attending an anti-doping conference in London this week. "I don't know what the right outcome is, [color="Red"]I haven't seen the evidence, but from a perception standpoint, something is not right there.[/color]

As he said, he obviously hasn't seen the evidence, or read anything beyond the headlines. There was never a one year agreement. The Competition Committee sent Contador a preliminary proposal that was never meant to be public. He was then to have ten quiet days to submit additional defense documents or arguments. That didn't happen because someone leaked it to the press, and Contador was informed by a journalist before he even received the letter. There was no cause and affect from the tweet by Zapatera, who had actually taken the time to read Contador's documents before coming to the conclusion.

Regardless of the outcome, there is a process in place now at this level that should give all of us comfort that WADA -- the independent agency -- is ultimately overseeing the decision."

He added: "If they don't review the case you will be hearing from me again."

So there's a hierarchy, with the UCI accountable to WADA, and if they don't do the right thing, Mr. Tygart steps up to do something or other in a case that, thankfully, is none of his business?

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6234223

Mr. Tygart, the RFEC Final Resolution is available in English. It's an awful lot of pages to have evolved from a simple message of 140 characters or less. Oh yeah, there were also numerous studies and opinions by experts who actually put in the time and effort.

http://www.albertocontadornotebook.info/ResolutionContador.pdf

[Bala Verde]

Anyone read this?

http://www5.economist.com/node/18386141

Blood transfusion
Painted out
How to disguise red blood cells so that their blood group is invisible

Mar 17th 2011 | from the print edition

Any colour as long as it’s red

THERE are 29 possible combinations of human blood groups, and for a patient to be given a safe transfusion the right one needs to be available.[...]

[JPM London]

Since the thread is up, I'll post a quick rant about Travis Tygart's AP interview, repeated around the world with various titles including the term "flip-flop"..



And the seven time Tour de France champion???



As he said, he obviously hasn't seen the evidence, or read anything beyond the headlines. There was never a one year agreement. The Competition Committee sent Contador a preliminary proposal that was never meant to be public. He was then to have ten quiet days to submit additional defense documents or arguments. That didn't happen because someone leaked it to the press, and Contador was informed by a journalist before he even received the letter. There was no cause and affect from the tweet by Zapatera, who had actually taken the time to read Contador's documents before coming to the conclusion.



So there's a hierarchy, with the UCI accountable to WADA, and if they don't do the right thing, Mr. Tygart steps up to do something or other in a case that, thankfully, is none of his business?

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6234223

Mr. Tygart, the RFEC Final Resolution is available in English. It's an awful lot of pages to have evolved from a simple message of 140 characters or less. Oh yeah, there were also numerous studies and opinions by experts who actually put in the time and effort.

http://www.albertocontadornotebook.info/ResolutionContador.pdf

You know, when I read the article I thought exactly the same thing and was just about to post something somewhere.

Then I thought; "Nah, Swordsman gonna come out and post something spot on - might as well let him handle it".

I especially like your last point - it's not OK for someone else to opine on the case, but it's perfectly alright for him to tell WADA what to do?

[Merckx index]

Apparently these were blood, urine and hair samples, and HGH and EPO were detected. In 1998. Am I missing something? Is there any reason why hair samples are not used for anti-doping tests?

This is a very strange passage. There was no official EPO test until 2001, and of course the test for HGH is even more recent. There was no reference in the passage to hair samples, maybe you are referring to something said earlier in the article? A hair test could certainly be carried out, it just couldn’t be used as evidence for a sanction. The prime evidence in the case, of course, was in the trunk of the car.

Anyone read this?

http://www5.economist.com/node/18386141

This is intriguing, but it would not help dopers. In the first place, the HBT works by identifying not only certain antigens on red cells, but also their absence. So coated cells would send up a red flag immediately. The HBT would identify a population of cells with none of the minor antigens on the panel at all. And even if it didn't, these cells could easily be identified by other means, as long as WADA knew to look for them.

[hrotha]

Yes, the hair tests were mentioned earlier:

July 23, 1998: Nine riders and three officials from Festina are taken into police custody. (...) Festina riders (Richard Virenque, Pascal Hervé, Didier Rous, Alex Zülle, Armin Meier and Laurent Dufaux) are questioned in Lyon and held in police custody. Police announce that they will also question the Rabobank and Casino teams.[17] The nine Festina riders were escorted to a hospital and obligated to undergo extensive tests and sample giving such as blood, hair and urine samples.[18]
(...)
November 28, 1998: The results of the analysis of the samples taken from the nine Festina riders are known and are subsequently released and revealed evidence of Human Growth Hormone, amphetamines, steroids, corticoids and Erythropoietin (EPO).

Take into account these were police tests, not UCI or FFC tests. I guess this has something to do with what many people have said, namely that the real problem with antidoping tests is the high rate of false negatives due to the thresholds used, not so much with the tests themselves. The police will have nothing of it, so when they get to test riders they nail them left and right.

[Dallas_]

What I would like to know and generally is all the financial breakdown of doping and the associated entities paying the bills.

A: what are the breakdown of costs associated with

1: doping controls

2: samples tested at labs and does that cost vary

3: samples stored long term

4: Which entity or entities pay for 1 & 2 or 3

-----------------------------------------------------

Which entity or entities pay for a case. If I may use AC as an example:

AC pays his legal staff.

Do RFEC hire lawyers and who pays for them.


If a case is appealed to CAS, who pays the lawyers of the UCI or WADA, or is that determined by final judgement.


Some posters wish for previous samples from races years ago to be retested for say CERA. I mean this would be a financial burden to entity A or A + B.

I find the financial side of doping fascinating. Maybe I am on my Pat Malone!

One rider claimed 500 controls in his career to date. Well 500 * A(1 + 2) could add up to what cycling cannot afford!

There may have been a previous thread with this type of info?

[Libertine Seguros]

Also, how come we always hear of Italy's Olympic committee (CONI) handing out bans, rather than their cycling federation (FCI)? In Spain we always hear of RFEC, but never their Olympic committee (COE).

Because the FCI aren't any better than RFEC (anybody remember di Luca's three-month out-of-season ban?), but as an Olympic sport CONI also are able, should they choose, to adjudicate on cycling cases. The Spanish Olympic committee aren't interested in pursuing cycling matters because as far as they're concerned that's what RFEC is there for; in Italy lots of parallel power structures stepping on each others' toes is just part of the scenery.