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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 13:00

Kokoso wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:The problem is, it's being reported as if the whole problem - and the athletes' petition that was rejected that led to the US and CZE delegations and Fourcade walking out of the meeting at Antholz - is to do with the handling of the Russians in the wake of the McLaren report, and frankly given some of the concerns about the report and the fact that 2/3 the athletes named in it have since been cleared, it's difficult to see what exactly they are supposed to have done. A lot hinges, like I said, on whether they are able to take action not against the Russian athletes but the SBR, because that's where the problem lies. I think that while Besseberg may anger the Americans and the Czechs with a lack of action and hoping the investigations will sort out enough bad apples to keep people happy, there's not really much of a middle ground to be taken, and any swifter, heavier action against athletes would lead to some pretty tail-between-the-legs backing down once so many of them were cleared of wrongdoing.

If the concerns are more wide-reaching ones and the reportage reducing it down to the Russia issue is inaccurate, then it does them a disservice. The fact that the two countries who've raised the most concerns and made the most fuss on this issue (and indeed, apart from Fourcade, all the athletes you name are from those two countries) are the countries that have the most to gain (either politically or sport-wise) may be coincidental, or it may not. YMMV. There are many issues with the running of the sport and plenty of reasons to critique the people in charge, however while I'm sure some of it is, I don't think all of the anti-Russia posturing is rooted in an altruistic commitment to cleaner sport.

Pointless post since it again stems from Koukalova not shaking Besseberg's hand; which you've automatically assigned to not suspeding or banning suspicious Russian athletes, or even all Russian athletes.

I don't quite understand how you've managed to include the petition there. The points of the petition had nothing to do with requirement for swifter action against Russian athletes (or as you've called it "baying for the Russians to be banned outright" - which is blatant lie).

Actually, Koko, it's not a pointless post, because it adds clarity to the previous one, pointing out that the way the actions of the teams are being reported - and I think it would be a bizarre argument to try to suggest that Fourcade, the US and Czech teams aren't the most vocal by far in this, and also the reason for including the petition was that these were the groups that walked out of the Antholz meeting - helps to create the feeling that there's a push for more action against Russia (especially Russophone sources, for obvious reasons) which, if inaccurate, does them a disservice - as I specifically stated in the post you regard as pointless. A Russian biathlon site ran an interview at Hochfilzen with a Czech trainer who talked of the team being afraid to accept gifts from fans anymore, "closing its windows and doors" (although I think this is metaphorical, not literal as it's been published) and of receiving abuse from Russian fans (taking care to specify that it's not the team) "probably because we are actively opposing doping" (here) - you can see how the statement, and the subsequent way in which it's been reported, creates a feeling of mutual antagonism, where context is not given and the interview comes across as quite hostile from the interviewer and guarded from the interviewee. I agree though, awarding Tyumen' the World Championships in 2021 was outright stupid.

I would point out, however, the names of the 31, the dates they were tested and McLaren report observations thereon actually are out there. My talking about the 12 juniors, and guesses at those still being investigated (posted a few weeks ago when Glazyrina's suspension was announced) after 22 of the 31 were cleared, is not idle speculation but all based on the information that has been provided.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 18:31

Kokoso wrote:What action? Not to give Tyumen World Championship at time when nobody should give Russia organizing of any such event. With that your question and basically all your post is answered sufficiently.

Not a single russian skier or biathlete was caught with doping in 2016 or 2017. Why did Koukalova go to Tyumen post season event in 2016?

Very Czech behaviour. Traditional one. And Besseberg words about Hitler's-like approach perfectly suit the situation. While ten's of millions of innocent russians were killed in WW2 "zlatý český ručičky" (Czech golden hands) were producing weapons and ammunition for that purpose and getting their salaries.
Rider
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20 Mar 2017 19:48

not sure the generalization about the modern czechs are fair. just as the generalizations about the russian dopers are fair...

i lived and worked in prague in the 90s. learned the language...many a time i went skiing with my czech friends among whom.... were the russian speakers. i can only vouch for my own experience - there was zero prejudice towards them among the czechs i befriended. not that there was no resentment among the older generation re. the 1968 or even earlier. old people have their own old opinions..

btw, it was casper not bessberg. and he was right. too bad being politically correct about anything re the jews had poisoned the european freedom of expression.
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20 Mar 2017 19:55

Casper, right, my mistake.

I also lived and worked in Prague in late 90s, was also skiing in NM. Had enough of their bs about 1968 (when I simply did not exist yet).
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 22:42

Libertine Seguros wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:The problem is, it's being reported as if the whole problem - and the athletes' petition that was rejected that led to the US and CZE delegations and Fourcade walking out of the meeting at Antholz - is to do with the handling of the Russians in the wake of the McLaren report, and frankly given some of the concerns about the report and the fact that 2/3 the athletes named in it have since been cleared, it's difficult to see what exactly they are supposed to have done. A lot hinges, like I said, on whether they are able to take action not against the Russian athletes but the SBR, because that's where the problem lies. I think that while Besseberg may anger the Americans and the Czechs with a lack of action and hoping the investigations will sort out enough bad apples to keep people happy, there's not really much of a middle ground to be taken, and any swifter, heavier action against athletes would lead to some pretty tail-between-the-legs backing down once so many of them were cleared of wrongdoing.

If the concerns are more wide-reaching ones and the reportage reducing it down to the Russia issue is inaccurate, then it does them a disservice. The fact that the two countries who've raised the most concerns and made the most fuss on this issue (and indeed, apart from Fourcade, all the athletes you name are from those two countries) are the countries that have the most to gain (either politically or sport-wise) may be coincidental, or it may not. YMMV. There are many issues with the running of the sport and plenty of reasons to critique the people in charge, however while I'm sure some of it is, I don't think all of the anti-Russia posturing is rooted in an altruistic commitment to cleaner sport.

Pointless post since it again stems from Koukalova not shaking Besseberg's hand; which you've automatically assigned to not suspeding or banning suspicious Russian athletes, or even all Russian athletes.

I don't quite understand how you've managed to include the petition there. The points of the petition had nothing to do with requirement for swifter action against Russian athletes (or as you've called it "baying for the Russians to be banned outright" - which is blatant lie).

Actually, Koko, it's not a pointless post, because it adds clarity to the previous one, pointing out that the way the actions of the teams are being reported - and I think it would be a bizarre argument to try to suggest that Fourcade, the US and Czech teams aren't the most vocal by far in this, and also the reason for including the petition was that these were the groups that walked out of the Antholz meeting - helps to create the feeling that there's a push for more action against Russia (especially Russophone sources, for obvious reasons) which, if inaccurate, does them a disservice - as I specifically stated in the post you regard as pointless. A Russian biathlon site ran an interview at Hochfilzen with a Czech trainer who talked of the team being afraid to accept gifts from fans anymore, "closing its windows and doors" (although I think this is metaphorical, not literal as it's been published) and of receiving abuse from Russian fans (taking care to specify that it's not the team) "probably because we are actively opposing doping" (here) - you can see how the statement, and the subsequent way in which it's been reported, creates a feeling of mutual antagonism, where context is not given and the interview comes across as quite hostile from the interviewer and guarded from the interviewee. I agree though, awarding Tyumen' the World Championships in 2021 was outright stupid.

I would point out, however, the names of the 31, the dates they were tested and McLaren report observations thereon actually are out there. My talking about the 12 juniors, and guesses at those still being investigated (posted a few weeks ago when Glazyrina's suspension was announced) after 22 of the 31 were cleared, is not idle speculation but all based on the information that has been provided.


Why was that stupid? When was Tyumen awarded the 2021 world's?
BullsFan22
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20 Mar 2017 22:50

google says the vote was on the 4th of September 2016
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 23:24

roundabout wrote:google says the vote was on the 4th of September 2016



And what's the issue?
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

25 Mar 2017 16:37

This is a very good article by one of the top journalists in Sweden, Anna-Lena Laurén, the correspondent of Dagens Nyheter in Moscow. She's not a sport journalist, but she basically raises all basic problems we have pointed out in this thread surrounding both Johaug and Johnsrud Sundby cases.

Use google translate to read this link: http://www.dn.se/arkiv/nyheter/anna-lena-lauren-idrottspamparnas-dubbla-mattstockar-ar-forodande/

Btw, Anna-Lena is a Swedish Finn - as Hasse Svens, seems the Finns are not accepting BS as easily as their fellow Swedish journalist collegues.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

25 Mar 2017 17:57

Discgear wrote:This is a very good article by one of the top journalists in Sweden, Anna-Lena Laurén, the correspondent of Dagens Nyheter in Moscow. She's not a sport journalist, but she basically raises all basic problems we have pointed out in this thread surrounding both Johaug and Johnsrud Sundby cases.

Use google translate to read this link: http://www.dn.se/arkiv/nyheter/anna-lena-lauren-idrottspamparnas-dubbla-mattstockar-ar-forodande/

Btw, Anna-Lena is a Swedish Finn - as Hasse Svens, seems the Finns are not accepting BS as easily as their fellow Swedish journalist collegues.


There is a gradual realization even in the Norwegian media, to a small degree, that the Johaug-case-is-special is non-story outside Norway. Everyone has a good explanation for why they got busted.
http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/johaug-tatt-i-doping/antidoping-leder-paagaar-ingen-johaug-debatt-internasjonalt/a/23955845/
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

26 Mar 2017 22:08

Meanwhile in Finland: https://www.instagram.com/p/BSHCUtUgJHt/?taken-by=kerttuniskanen
Pekka Vähäsöyrinki becomes the new personal coach of Kerttu Niskanen and Juho Mikkonen. I really expected something like that. Kerttu was very disappointed in her season and it was quite obvious that her cooperation with Jussi Piirainen didn't lead to good enough results.

All the gangsters from the 90s are now truly back in the game apart from Kyrö who also will also begin coaching again soon:
Jarmo Punkkinen: Kaisa Mäkäräinen
Antti Leppävuori: Finnish national biathlon team
Jarmo Riski: Sami Jauhojärvi (and still consulting Aino-Kaisa Saarinen)
Pekka Vähäsöyrinki: Ari Luusua, Kerttu Niskanen, Juho Mikkonen

It's also fairly common knowledge in the Finnish skiing circles that Kyrö and Anne Kyllönen worked together when Kyllönen was at her peak, but I believe she already has switched coach.
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28 Mar 2017 04:55

Good post. Niskanen hiring vähäsöyrinki is ridiculous, but it is even more ridiculous that no journalist asks her about it. Or the others you listed. I mean mäkäräinen and punkkinen, for Petes sake. It is only a month since mr vähäsöyrinki "confessed" his involvement in the team wide shenanigans before Lahti 2001.

No substantial difference to Johaug and MJS in my book.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

28 Mar 2017 05:13

I am sure most of us that have contributed and those that just like to read this particular part of the Clinic know about the SVT documentary on high blood values in the 90's, but as I was thinking about the recent doping cases in skiing, I couldn't resist searching for it, and would like to share it:

http://www.svt.se/ug/svensk-skidchef-morkade-blodvarden
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

28 Mar 2017 06:31

BullsFan22 wrote:I am sure most of us that have contributed and those that just like to read this particular part of the Clinic know about the SVT documentary on high blood values in the 90's, but as I was thinking about the recent doping cases in skiing, I couldn't resist searching for it, and would like to share it:

http://www.svt.se/ug/svensk-skidchef-morkade-blodvarden

Bengt-Erik Bengtsson let Silvio Fauner and Manuella Di Centa compete even though they had over the limit blood values in Lahtis 1997.
Rød pølse - Breakfast of Champions!
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29 Mar 2017 16:42

No action to be taken by Anti Doping Norway against Johaug's doctor https://www.nrk.no/sport/patalenemnda-henlegger-saken-mot-bendiksen-1.13450170 the reason given that there was no deliberate breaking of rules.
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Re:

30 Mar 2017 08:28

Blaaswix wrote:No action to be taken by Anti Doping Norway against Johaug's doctor https://www.nrk.no/sport/patalenemnda-henlegger-saken-mot-bendiksen-1.13450170 the reason given that there was no deliberate breaking of rules.


Antidoping Norge is a compassionate, humane and merciful lenient organzation. Now I guess we are all looking forward to the occasion when Johaug will sue the former team doctor on millions. :rolleyes:
Last edited by Discgear on 30 Mar 2017 14:07, edited 1 time in total.
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30 Mar 2017 12:38

Any hope WADA or FIS will object for the lenience of this level of reckless stupidity?
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

30 Mar 2017 15:34

The grand old man of XC-skiing in SVT, Jakob Hard comments on Anti Doping Norges decision to free Bendiksen:
"En landslagsläkare som köper, ordinerar och tillhandahåller anabola steroider till en elitidrottare och dessutom försäkrar att det inte är doping bryter inte mot dopingreglerna. Nu vet vi det."
http://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/hard-om-friade-lakaren-kanns-minst-sagt-markligt/

translation:
A team doctor that buys, prescripts and provides anabolic steroids to a top athlete and furthermore assures it's not doping, doesn't violate the doping rules. Now we know.

Pretty much sums it up. :eek:
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30 Mar 2017 18:31

I like this verdict.

This is why:
1. Johaug is caught with stereoids in her blood.
2. She is asked to explain how that could happen
3. A completely improbable chain of events is fabricated. Funny thing is that it was the least improbable story that could be fabricated.
4. A very experienced sports doctor had to be sacrificed in order to make the story stick with the public.
5. FIS won't buy the story, brings it to CAS. :D
6. ADN gets uncomfortable with the coming fallout from the CAS verdict.
7. ADN re-evaluates the story and realizes it's fabricated.
8. By logic, doctor is not guilty of the "fabricated actions".

Is there any other logical explanation?
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Re:

30 Mar 2017 20:42

Nicko. wrote:I like this verdict.

This is why:
1. Johaug is caught with stereoids in her blood.
2. She is asked to explain how that could happen
3. A completely improbable chain of events is fabricated. Funny thing is that it was the least improbable story that could be fabricated.
4. A very experienced sports doctor had to be sacrificed in order to make the story stick with the public.
5. FIS won't buy the story, brings it to CAS. :D
6. ADN gets uncomfortable with the coming fallout from the CAS verdict.
7. ADN re-evaluates the story and realizes it's fabricated.
8. By logic, doctor is not guilty of the "fabricated actions".

Is there any other logical explanation?



This whole thing is just mind numbing. I still don't understand how something that is supposed to go on the lips gets into the bloodstream or urine. That's essentially the start of the problem, or number 1 in your list of 8. I still can't get past number 1, so you know that I am bewildered by this whole debacle. Everything from 2 to 8 is one big soap opera that only Norwegian XC and the people surrounding it can conjure up. They should do another season of Lillyhammer on Netflix that only revolves around the Johaug case.
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30 Mar 2017 21:02

the norge state agency exoneration of the doping doc whose earnings are almost exclusively norge state-derived should surprise NO ONE.

if you you were surprised, you don't understand how a state sponsored system of 'health care' is essentially the same animal as the very mafia concept - designed, conceived and actually practicing - legally - mind you, the same 'family' values.

you naive folks should get it, the doc was part of the family. the big norge family - from the clown northug to lofshus to olympiatoppe etc...all earning their living by exploiting the national obsession with the sport. the 'grey areas' were always a part of the the 'family business'.

don't count on learning much unless 'the family' gets busted.
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