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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Doping in XC skiing

07 Jan 2018 20:17

Cloxxki wrote:
Cloxxki wrote:Did you guys her the Tour de Ski men's Stage 6 commentary on British Eurosport? Sundy got at least mentioned for his salbutamol scandal twice. Did our emails get heard? :-)

Wow, even the beloved Denise Herrmann gets a doping shoutout to open the Oberhof Sprint footage!


What??
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

07 Jan 2018 20:22

Conditions seemed quite fast, which suited Harvey and Poltoranin, two men that haven't had too much success on this climb, but today, they were NOTICEABLY quicker than normal. They both stuck in for longer than I thought. Poltoranin I thought would start dropping if not early on the climb, certainly halfway on the steepest pitches. Harvey stuck to Sundby like glue until the last drag to the finish. What in the world?? I know Harvey had an 'operation' a couple years ago for some leg issues that he said would help him on the climb. Last year he couldn't do anything when Hellner, Cologna, Heikkinen and Manificat caught and passed him. This year he hangs on to Sundby, the fastest skier on the day. I don't want to hear anymore complaints about any doping from Harvey, but you know it's going to happen, particularly if he comes away from another Olympic cycle without a medal and even more so if the Russians have success there.
BullsFan22
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13 Jan 2018 11:22

Koukalova story looks very, very questionable. Two excellent seasons in WC (till the last stage in 2016-2017) and suddenly some ... sickness in summer. Extremely questionable.
Rider
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Re:

14 Jan 2018 12:26

Rider wrote:Koukalova story looks very, very questionable. Two excellent seasons in WC (till the last stage in 2016-2017) and suddenly some ... sickness in summer. Extremely questionable.

Indeed.

I'm still not sture about Neuner's retirement. She complained about too little testing. Was this because she saw team mates get away with murder, or because in an Amstrongian way she was deflecting attention away from herself in that context? Or even more interestingly, felt bad for doing it and wanted to be brought to a halt?
Her early retirement being communicated well in advance makes it a non-issue or symptom of the greatest cover-up ever.
Cloxxki
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14 Jan 2018 13:16

Neuner's retirement on her results peak was exactly in the eve of bio passport introduction in biathlon. Enough said.
Rider
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

14 Jan 2018 13:42

I thought you guys were big on the whole evidence thing.

Guess not.
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14 Jan 2018 14:46

The biggest problem with the Koukalová story is simply that there hasn't been much communication of what exactly the problem is, just that it's to do with her calf. Maybe the Czech press has more information, but to miss a whole season - and an Olympic one no less - is a huge step to take, and it was also announced well in advance, back at the end of October, that she may miss the Olympics. If there was some precision about what it was that had caused that absence - like Sleptsova's knee surgery, Gössner's spinal injury or Simon Fourcade's toxoplasmosis - it would perhaps seem less questionable. Like "she badly messed up her leg in a biking accident and the muscles are a complete mess" --> "ok, that sounds fair enough" or "she's torn a muscle in a place that makes it really difficult to mend, so it will take a lot longer" --> "that sucks, suppose she probably won't be able to train to the level needed". As things stand, thus far - and presumably because until recently there was still the possibility of her competing in Pyeongchang - everything's been dealt with in very vague details that make it hard to draw any conclusions from.

I mean, I thought her emergence in 2012-13 was suspiciously immediate, but apparently she had missed most of 2011-12 with mono which explains that lack of results. And I thought her emergence as a dominant skier was somewhat surprising too, but it's not like she woke up one day and made a huge step up in level like Irina Starykh either. I'm also well aware that my personal dislike of her affects how I perceive these things too.
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Re:

14 Jan 2018 16:33

Libertine Seguros wrote:The biggest problem with the Koukalová story is simply that there hasn't been much communication of what exactly the problem is, just that it's to do with her calf. Maybe the Czech press has more information, but to miss a whole season - and an Olympic one no less - is a huge step to take, and it was also announced well in advance, back at the end of October, that she may miss the Olympics. If there was some precision about what it was that had caused that absence - like Sleptsova's knee surgery, Gössner's spinal injury or Simon Fourcade's toxoplasmosis - it would perhaps seem less questionable. Like "she badly messed up her leg in a biking accident and the muscles are a complete mess" --> "ok, that sounds fair enough" or "she's torn a muscle in a place that makes it really difficult to mend, so it will take a lot longer" --> "that sucks, suppose she probably won't be able to train to the level needed". As things stand, thus far - and presumably because until recently there was still the possibility of her competing in Pyeongchang - everything's been dealt with in very vague details that make it hard to draw any conclusions from.

I mean, I thought her emergence in 2012-13 was suspiciously immediate, but apparently she had missed most of 2011-12 with mono which explains that lack of results. And I thought her emergence as a dominant skier was somewhat surprising too, but it's not like she woke up one day and made a huge step up in level like Irina Starykh either. I'm also well aware that my personal dislike of her affects how I perceive these things too.


Not so much, only vague explanation that probably due to change in skiing technique she has problems with calfs ... . The part concerning skiing technique haven't been discussed until December... .
lartiste
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

14 Jan 2018 19:11

Could one see any significant difference in her technique between 2015-2016 and 2016-2017? I do not see it.

First news about her calves came in July. She was great during the last season and the last stage of the season. Did she changed her technique in April / June?

How many skiers had such issues with calves that could not recover for 6 months? Could not remember a single one. As well as google.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

14 Jan 2018 19:57

Rider wrote:Could one see any significant difference in her technique between 2015-2016 and 2016-2017? I do not see it.

First news about her calves came in July. She was great during the last season and the last stage of the season. Did she changed her technique in April / June?

How many skiers had such issues with calves that could not recover for 6 months? Could not remember a single one. As well as google.


She claimed that she was training to change her skiing technique during last two years ... . She claimed, that it was too demanding for feets and calfs for someone with her physique ... .

If I remember correctly problems with leg muscles effectively ended carrier of ice hockey player Otakar Vejvoda, when he was less than 26 ... .
lartiste
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

17 Jan 2018 12:51

Rider wrote:Could one see any significant difference in her technique between 2015-2016 and 2016-2017? I do not see it.

First news about her calves came in July. She was great during the last season and the last stage of the season. Did she changed her technique in April / June?

How many skiers had such issues with calves that could not recover for 6 months? Could not remember a single one. As well as google.

Nice try, but that change of technique happened in longer time span than April/June last year, so this "Could one see any significant difference in her technique between 2015-2016 and 2016-2017?" is wrong quetion.

And, it was not first time she had problems with this. She had problems with Achilles tendons for long time.

"How many skiers had such issues with calves that could not recover for 6 months? Could not remember a single one." Hahaha...how many of them do you know? :razz: Anyway, there are many health problems that woud not recover in six months, especially if one is not completely resting.
Last edited by Kokoso on 17 Jan 2018 13:07, edited 1 time in total.
Kokoso
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Re:

17 Jan 2018 12:53

Rider wrote:Koukalova story looks very, very questionable. Two excellent seasons in WC (till the last stage in 2016-2017) and suddenly some ... sickness in summer. Extremely questionable.

Pretty clinicesque, too funny :razz: So both of you Cloxxki consider Koukalova very questionable based on...nothing. No single reason stated. You guys are great! :razz:
Kokoso
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Re:

17 Jan 2018 13:02

Libertine Seguros wrote:The biggest problem with the Koukalová story is simply that there hasn't been much communication of what exactly the problem is, just that it's to do with her calf. Maybe the Czech press has more information, but to miss a whole season - and an Olympic one no less - is a huge step to take, and it was also announced well in advance, back at the end of October, that she may miss the Olympics.

Quite on the contrary. There were a lot of informations on this topic in Czech press. Unnecesary amount of communication on one single athlete's problem I would say. Reason was stated pretty clearly - she has long time problems with Achilles tendons and other tendons in calf and calf muscles (it's part of one functional complex so that comes as no surprises).
Also IT WAS NOT ANNOUNCED in October she could miss Olympics.
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Re: Re:

17 Jan 2018 14:21

Blaaswix wrote:
The Russians looking bad does not make the Norwegians look better.

Nobody says it does. Have you even bother to read and get context? Because your reaction is of the way.

Here's the thing: If you're going to have 'context' then everybody has to have the same allowance for 'context'. Without going through the whole of last season again, you can't make excuses for one country's athletes and not another's.

I was not arguing that Russians make Norwegians look better. I was not doing excuses for one's country athlets and not another. You are of the point. That is why I asked you to get the context, why you clearly had not.

I was arguing that it is not good to make Russians look better than Russians.
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Re: Re:

17 Jan 2018 14:29

BullsFan22 wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
Blaaswix wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
Cloxxki wrote:If I remember correctly, Sundy self-diagnosed (and actively broadcasted) his asthma. But, cotnrary to popular Norwegian tradition, actually not a TUE for it. Dosed via state doctor supplied, waxing truck installed vaporizer, roughly (conservatively) 10-20x the typical dosage, daily. And doesn't miss a race over it.
But if you're Russian, you're banned by default. What do you expect, being Russian and all?

Segey Ustyugov (among many others) says hello.

Enough for the nonsense. :D :D :D

P.S. You've missed someting for sure...


The Russians looking bad does not make the Norwegians look better. Nebulizers, asthma medicine, the pointing of fingers at others and then the Johaug and Sunby cases. None of it is good.


Another one who doesn't bother to get the context. Or, more likely, I guess you both do (get the context and know your reaction is outside the point) but chose to pretend not to and rather look stupid. Well, it's your choice :)


Can you explain?

Yey, I can. I am not making Norwegians look better than Russians. Still Blaaswix and you are acting so and go on naming thing. On the other hand you both OVERLOOK clearly WRONG Cloxxki's statement that Russians are banned by default (we all know it is not true). Hence why are both of you of the point.
Kokoso
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Re: Re:

17 Jan 2018 18:36

Kokoso wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:The biggest problem with the Koukalová story is simply that there hasn't been much communication of what exactly the problem is, just that it's to do with her calf. Maybe the Czech press has more information, but to miss a whole season - and an Olympic one no less - is a huge step to take, and it was also announced well in advance, back at the end of October, that she may miss the Olympics.

Quite on the contrary. There were a lot of informations on this topic in Czech press. Unnecesary amount of communication on one single athlete's problem I would say. Reason was stated pretty clearly - she has long time problems with Achilles tendons and other tendons in calf and calf muscles (it's part of one functional complex so that comes as no surprises).
Also IT WAS NOT ANNOUNCED in October she could miss Olympics.

My exact point was that there might be more information in the Czech press, but only very vague information has made it across to other language press. I don't read Czech, hence why I left the caveat that the Czech press might have more detail on it. All of the articles I've seen have been "problems with aching calf muscles" and "problems with the achilles". Never any detail on what those problems actually are, although she made a comment more recently to suggest she's made changes in her skiing technique, though whether that's to accommodate the problems with her calves or whether that's the cause of the problems has again not been something that I've found any clarity on. You probably can fill us in with the details which can hopefully resolve the riddle, same as her 2011-12 bout of mono - which wasn't reported much outside Czechia because at the time she was a relatively peripheral name, explained why she seemed to emerge from out of thin air in 2012-13 and I withdrew the raised eyebrows about that.

On the other point though, afraid you're wrong: it WAS announced in October she could miss the Olympics. See this article from Eurosport, date stamp October 27th:
https://www.eurosport.de/biathlon/biathlon-gabriela-koukalova-verpasst-weltcup-auftakt-olympia-start-gefahrdet_sto6383240/story.shtml

Or this one the same day from ARD's Sportschau:
http://www.sportschau.de/wintersport/biathlon/Biathlon-Gabriela-Koukalova-verpasst-saisonstart-100.html

Is it just the Germans jumping the gun? Probably not, since this Anglophone Czech-based source is more vague than the German articles about the injury and more grave about the impact on the Olympics:
http://www.praguemonitor.com/2017/10/27/calf-injury-may-prevent-biathlete-koukalov%C3%A1-joining-olympics

There are others I could show you, from French, Swedish and Russian sources, all dated from the 27th to the 29th of October last year. So while she didn't announce she would miss the Olympics until recently, the fact the Olympics were in jeopardy due to the injury was known about exactly when I said it was: at the end of October.
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Re: Re:

17 Jan 2018 19:16

Libertine Seguros wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:The biggest problem with the Koukalová story is simply that there hasn't been much communication of what exactly the problem is, just that it's to do with her calf. Maybe the Czech press has more information, but to miss a whole season - and an Olympic one no less - is a huge step to take, and it was also announced well in advance, back at the end of October, that she may miss the Olympics.

Quite on the contrary. There were a lot of informations on this topic in Czech press. Unnecesary amount of communication on one single athlete's problem I would say. Reason was stated pretty clearly - she has long time problems with Achilles tendons and other tendons in calf and calf muscles (it's part of one functional complex so that comes as no surprises).
Also IT WAS NOT ANNOUNCED in October she could miss Olympics.

My exact point was that there might be more information in the Czech press, but only very vague information has made it across to other language press. I don't read Czech, hence why I left the caveat that the Czech press might have more detail on it. All of the articles I've seen have been "problems with aching calf muscles" and "problems with the achilles". Never any detail on what those problems actually are, although she made a comment more recently to suggest she's made changes in her skiing technique, though whether that's to accommodate the problems with her calves or whether that's the cause of the problems has again not been something that I've found any clarity on. You probably can fill us in with the details which can hopefully resolve the riddle, same as her 2011-12 bout of mono - which wasn't reported much outside Czechia because at the time she was a relatively peripheral name, explained why she seemed to emerge from out of thin air in 2012-13 and I withdrew the raised eyebrows about that.

On the other point though, afraid you're wrong: it WAS announced in October she could miss the Olympics. See this article from Eurosport, date stamp October 27th:
https://www.eurosport.de/biathlon/biathlon-gabriela-koukalova-verpasst-weltcup-auftakt-olympia-start-gefahrdet_sto6383240/story.shtml

Or this one the same day from ARD's Sportschau:
http://www.sportschau.de/wintersport/biathlon/Biathlon-Gabriela-Koukalova-verpasst-saisonstart-100.html

Is it just the Germans jumping the gun? Probably not, since this Anglophone Czech-based source is more vague than the German articles about the injury and more grave about the impact on the Olympics:
http://www.praguemonitor.com/2017/10/27/calf-injury-may-prevent-biathlete-koukalov%C3%A1-joining-olympics

There are others I could show you, from French, Swedish and Russian sources, all dated from the 27th to the 29th of October last year. So while she didn't announce she would miss the Olympics until recently, the fact the Olympics were in jeopardy due to the injury was known about exactly when I said it was: at the end of October.

Well, know you know they were pretty specific what the problem is.

"Never any detail on what those problems actually are, although she made a comment more recently to suggest she's made changes in her skiing technique" - That she has made changes in her skiing technique would be no detail on what those problems actually are, would it?
Anyway it has been said by Soukalova that's the cause of her problems.

You are right on the other topic, I am sorry. I thought it was just bulvar thing. Anyway I see nothing strange about that.

You've had raised eybrows back then but I never got why. At 23 years of age she could hardly not be peripheral name and those who followed knew she had pretty decent results, and she even wasn't that peripheral name actually, 2nd place from ECH or two wins in IBU cup in seasons before seem pretty decent results.


She might or might not be doping, one never know, but I think you'd agree Cloxxki's and Rider's reactions were not very lucky ones.

Anyway I wonder why are you discussing this in clinic section and not Nordic skiing/biathlin thread?
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17 Jan 2018 19:29

I don't think "aches in the muscles" is particularly clear when it comes to explaining why somebody would miss an entire season, especially an Olympic season, to be totally honest. If they'd said she'd ruptured or torn something, that gives a clear indication and probably wouldn't draw the same reaction. Like the cases I mentioned, it's easy to explain: "she's just had knee surgery" or "she's broken her spine" immediately point to a long-term injury. At the same time, if they couldn't quite figure out what the exact issue was, then that could have been communicated; "she has these pains and aches that are preventing her training properly, we are running tests but struggling to pinpoint what the issue is, so it's a race against time to find out so we can help her get back into competitive shape for the Olympics" would make a lot of sense too. As I say, it could well be a moot point if the detail is there in the Czech press, just not communicated in the same detail to those of us reliant on press in other languages.

And as for being peripheral at 23, it really depends on the person, we've discussed her emergence after the junior years at length - the thing was, even in the strong performances you'd pointed out at the end of 2010-11, she was outshone by Wierer who had dominated that year's Junior Worlds and went well in Khanty too. Obviously some people don't get good until fairly late, others are stars from the word go, but the fact that Soukalová had missed much of 2011-12 and I hadn't really picked up, or had reason to remember, her decent showings from 2010-11, meant I just saw somebody who went from 93rd to 6th in the World Cup and winning every race at a single weekend. Anyway, we've unpicked those preconceptions about her early career plenty before, so no need to go into it all again.

Anyway, I'm discussing this here because this was where it was raised. I didn't raise the subject.
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19 Jan 2018 14:01

JTB is doped. sorry but no one can gain 40 seconds in 10 km to everyone
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19 Jan 2018 17:27

Besides, everyone makes minor changes in technique, and some with horrible technique get to world level. I had very good classic technique, but not nearly the motor. Give me a fast or highly technical course and I'd be close, a power course, forget it. It I added some extra fuel by doping, national level would have been plausible. Now I'm just old and slow.
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