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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Jan 2019 20:40

To frenchfry:

Just as I thought, you came up with the predictable answer. What have they been caught doing, exactly? It's all one man's (he's living in California now) words, apparently, 'allegedly.' The Canadian lawyer is just that, a lawyer. He's there for the money. CAS cleared the majority of the athletes. People like Ustiugov and Shipulin were not allowed to go to Pyeongchang for no reason. Neither WADA nor the IOC ever gave an explanation.

To your assumption that no other country has been involved in mass doping (with the assumption that the Russians did as you say):

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/17/sports/olympics-anti-doping-official-says-us-covered-up.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-18/exum-names-lewis-fernandez-in-doping-cover-up/1838520

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/lewis-a-drug-cheat-documents-suggest-cover-up-20030419-gdvk9s.html

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100883&page=1

And how about something more recent?

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1064426/italy-and-athletics-top-list-of-countries-and-sports-with-most-doping-cases-in-2016


No, doping doesn't really bother me, I am a spectator, I've followed anything from xc, biathlon to track and field to the NFL, MLB, all these sports have been rife with doping..what bothers me are the double standards and the hypocrisy. If we truly want a 'clean' sport (whatever that means with all the TUE's and exemptions these days) then we have to have a zero tolerance policy and treat everyone the same.

There is a probability, perhaps a high probability that Loginov is doping. If that is the case, then there is no way that guys like Fourcade or Boe aren't doping. This isn't 'whataboutism' or something like that, it's reality. It's like back in 2006, when Armstrong's rivals were falling left and right, and people thought 'no, Lance can't be doping.' Oh really? He was just magically better than the other 19 guys in the top 20 that were found to have doped? You'd have to go far down the list of the GC in those years to find someone that maybe, perhaps, somehow, was clean. Fourcade at his peak hardly looked out of breath. He attacked whenever he felt like it and shot fast and was accurate. Even when he missed shots he would still win races, like Boe is today. The older Boe wasn't far off in 2011-2014 when he was more consistent.
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Jan 2019 20:43

Bambino, I apologize for mentioning the Finns in respect to Myllylla. Of course I know what happened to him. It's sad.

Not sure how I am using propaganda though.
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Jan 2019 20:46

BullsFan22 wrote:Bambino, I apologize for mentioning the Finns in respect to Myllylla. Of course I know what happened to him. It's sad.



Classy to apologies.
bambino
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12 Jan 2019 21:20

Let's put it in a slightly wider context.

As I recall, at the time Loginov blamed his positive on a prostate infection treatment. I believe that the decision is up on the IBU website, so anyone interested in the case can read up on additional details.

Since 2008, apart from Loginov at least 4 other biathletes from Russia tested positive for EPO with Iourieva managing to do it twice. I will not mention the ongoing biological passport cases (and irregular values of these athletes were known about for years), other ADRVs, various other rumors about that period.

It is correct that Loginov owes nobody nothing, but at the same time given his BS explanation and very likely systematic doping culture in Russian biathlon at the time taking a bigger responsibility for the positive by admitting that the explanation was BS would probably at least help a little to change the attitudes.

Of course the obvious answer why Loginov would not apologize is because the people involved in his doping are still part of the biathlon system and any deviation from the accidental contamination (even for EPO!) / Western conspiracy / anyone elses fault but ours script is not allowed.

So again, he owes nothing, but he has not even done a small step that is within his power to be considered more worthy of trust.
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12 Jan 2019 21:30

It's hilarious that mass doping in Russia is an 'assumption'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stripped_Olympic_medals
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12 Jan 2019 21:31

Bullsfan,

I never affirmed that Fourcade is clean (how could I know), but the difference with Loginov is that he has never been caught if he is. If anyone thinks his performances warrant suspicion, fine with me.

As to Russian state doping, you appear to give a lot of weight to conspiracy theories. Thats fine but I don't buy into it. There is a lot more there than you admit.

I thought about the US coverup when i wrote my previous post, and probably shouldn't have let it slide. The difference was, I believe, that the doping wasn't institutional but the coverup was. Never have I said the Russians are the only bad guys, it just so happens they are in the news a lot lately. Why won't they share their lab records if they have nothing to hide?

Complicated subject, but as I have often said here i don't think it is unreasonable to suspect the Russians as a group. At least for now, and I hope that changes someday soon.
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Jan 2019 23:37

BullsFan22 wrote:There is a probability, perhaps a high probability that Loginov is doping. If that is the case, then there is no way that guys like Fourcade or Boe aren't doping. This isn't 'whataboutism' or something like that, it's reality.
No, it simply isn't. You are deluding yourself if you believe it's that easy.
kingjr
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Re:

12 Jan 2019 23:41

roundabout wrote:Since 2008, apart from Loginov at least 4 other biathletes from Russia tested positive for EPO with Iourieva managing to do it twice. I will not mention the ongoing biological passport cases (and irregular values of these athletes were known about for years), other ADRVs, various other rumors about that period.

From the actual international team, there's Iourieva, Iaroschenko, Starykh and... that's it, isn't it? I know a few guys tested positive for EPO from the national calendar but the others from international competition I am aware of are for different things I think - Burdyga for Carphedon and Latypov for meldonium, for example. I'm pretty sure EPO doesn't figure in the Sochi stuff, nor with Ustyugov/Sleptsova from Vancouver either.

It is correct that Loginov owes nobody nothing, but at the same time given his BS explanation and very likely systematic doping culture in Russian biathlon at the time taking a bigger responsibility for the positive by admitting that the explanation was BS would probably at least help a little to change the attitudes.

Of course the obvious answer why Loginov would not apologize is because the people involved in his doping are still part of the biathlon system and any deviation from the accidental contamination (even for EPO!) / Western conspiracy / anyone elses fault but ours script is not allowed.

So again, he owes nothing, but he has not even done a small step that is within his power to be considered more worthy of trust.

Well, he's between a rock and a hard place and while that is of his own making, so we don't have to sympathize with him, we can at least understand the position he's in. Russia as a whole feels singled out, being shamed and fingers pointed at it from all corners, and often from some very hypocritical (hello all those representing the USA) or very preachy or self-righteous (hello Hamza, hello Samuelsson, hello Fourcade) corners, and there is a very significant pride issue in the narrative that has been being pushed. Russia is not unreasonable in thinking that they are being singled out for blame and hung out to dry, painted as the dirty dastardly dopers of the world, allowing the façade of clean sport to be presented while not rocking the boat since most people already associated Russians with doping long before the Sochi allegations. But at the same time, it is hard to complain about a witchhunt when you are in fact a witch.

Loginov has been very humble and kept things on-point in interviews and discussions thus far this season, because ultimately he doesn't want to be followed with the same questions from now until eternity, and he wants to get on with his racing, for better or worse. He will perhaps always be seen as a criminal, a cheat and an outsider in the biathlon world so long as he doesn't provide some kind of formal apology to the rest of the international biathlon community, but at the same time, if he was to issue some kind of public "mea culpa" message and metaphorically get on his hands and knees in front of the likes of Fourcade and beg their forgiveness, it would be absolute PR suicide at home as well. That is perhaps why he has palmed off journalists asking him about Fourcade's comments by saying that he would like to talk that through in person with Fourcade, rather than conversing through television cameras without speaking to one another.

Let us not forget that Martin was the one who was apparently so offended by doping that he took to social media to protest the SBR wishing Loginov a happy birthday (how dare a man who has doped have a pleasant day!). And he's so offended by doping that he cannot speak of or to them, unless a microphone is present.
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14 Jan 2019 16:23

Two Norwegian juniors received growth hormone treatments. Apparently the treatments being administered in a hospital makes it alright.

Hopefully these treatments also control asthma, which is epedemic among Norwegian x-country skiers

http://www.ski-nordique.net/un-traitement-hormonal-pour-deux-grandes-espoirs-norvegiennes.6181346-72348.html
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14 Jan 2019 17:56

the norwegian media is again at it - 'we have nothing to hide'.

like after sundby who said the same many times while insisting that wada review his case in absolute secret or johaug had nothing to hide when her doc lost memory and mind as to how he approved an anabolic steroid and she lied about always reading the labels.

so they had nothing to hide until it became publicly known the 2 starlets were chemically grown. the swedish reaction is so far very reserved.

in essence, what the press release tell us is this, 'if our 2 biggest young starlets didn't grow into stars naturally and fast enough we are going to help them chemically with growth hormones.... and thanks wada we had found the legal loop holes via a tue process'.

if they have nothing to hide why refuse any further comments to the questions which are certainly to follow ?
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