Log in:  

Register

Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen, Valv.Piti

Re:

14 Feb 2018 20:37

Oude Geuze wrote:@Kokoso: Discgear, wrote: “The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics.”

Amongst others if you “read properly” ;)

I know Dicgear wrote that; so again - nobody ciriticized bringing it to the competition. You've missed the point completely. You've wrote nothing knew; everybody here knows it's useful medication. Even Discgear wrote this: "Celeston is normally just used for tendons, bursals and joints."

What we are criticizing is retroactive TUE based on the athletes decision and using in in the competition, because it's not only medication, but PED too.

So read properly before making conclusions. You seem not bothering understanding what others have written at all. This time you've decided not to react at the point at all, ridiculous.
Kokoso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,526
Joined: 22 Apr 2012 06:45

Re:

15 Feb 2018 08:05

Discgear wrote:
Discgear wrote:The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics. The medical leader Mona Kjeldsberg comforts that generally speaking its not used that much by their athletes. https://www.tv2.no/sport/9669801/

Sorry for quoting myself, but this article actually is quite disturbing and sensational. It opens up a worm hole of thoughts concerning the way TUEs are handled. Kenacort and Celeston were drugs central in the Wiggins scandal and Kenacort was found in Armstrong positives. Michael Rasmussen is quoted saying: Those are monsterdopes in terms of performance enhancing. He continues: Celeston is as powerful as Kenacort. It was used a lot both at Rabobank and CSC. Both Kenacort and Celeston are frequently used as performance enhancing drugs in cycling.

The article quotes another three bicyclists and dopers all witnessing about the enormous effects with the drugs, putting both Testosteron and EPO in the shadows.

Now to the sensational part where the head of the Norwegian medical team, Mona Kjeldsberg, between the lines reveals quite a lot. She defends use of the drugs because they can be used for allergic reactions, and Tendinitis. She also talks about putting a syringe in the muscles with a TUE granted by IOC or ADAMS. She continues to say that the drugs generally speaking are not used that much by their athletes and points out: Celeston is normally just used for tendons, bursals and joints. When asked if the athletes have had TUEs in competitions the last years she’s silent due to professional secrecy.

I find it truly incredible that it is allowed to compete with such drugs in the body just if you have a TUE. When you know how wide the conscience in the Norwegian medical team is (calling 15000 microgram of Salbutamol normal and just a mistake not asking for a TUE, handing out Clostebol to treat lips, putting a smorgasbord with asthma medication free to use without a prescription in the wax trailer, bringing 10 Nebulizers to the Olympics), this article – as said – opens up a worm hole with nasty questions.

Part III:
Some hours ago, there was a follow up article by Norwegian television. https://www.tv2.no/a/9678376 They asked Monica Kjeldsberg from Olympiatoppen, head of the Norwegian Medical team:
Have any athletes had TUEs to use the drugs [Kenacort and Celeston] in competition, either in these games or former competitions? We are not asking for names.
She answered that she can’t answer due to professional secrecy.

On a direct question from TV2, The Norwegian Directorate of Health answers that professional secrecy is no obstacle when there’s no possibility to identify single athletes.
Since there is over 100 athletes in this troop, and in addition many hundred more included in the questions “former competition”, its not possible to identify single athletes.

To be continued….
Discgear
Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 04 Mar 2013 09:34

Re: Re:

15 Feb 2018 08:13

Discgear wrote:
Discgear wrote:
Discgear wrote:The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics. The medical leader Mona Kjeldsberg comforts that generally speaking its not used that much by their athletes. https://www.tv2.no/sport/9669801/

Sorry for quoting myself, but this article actually is quite disturbing and sensational. It opens up a worm hole of thoughts concerning the way TUEs are handled. Kenacort and Celeston were drugs central in the Wiggins scandal and Kenacort was found in Armstrong positives. Michael Rasmussen is quoted saying: Those are monsterdopes in terms of performance enhancing. He continues: Celeston is as powerful as Kenacort. It was used a lot both at Rabobank and CSC. Both Kenacort and Celeston are frequently used as performance enhancing drugs in cycling.

The article quotes another three bicyclists and dopers all witnessing about the enormous effects with the drugs, putting both Testosteron and EPO in the shadows.

Now to the sensational part where the head of the Norwegian medical team, Mona Kjeldsberg, between the lines reveals quite a lot. She defends use of the drugs because they can be used for allergic reactions, and Tendinitis. She also talks about putting a syringe in the muscles with a TUE granted by IOC or ADAMS. She continues to say that the drugs generally speaking are not used that much by their athletes and points out: Celeston is normally just used for tendons, bursals and joints. When asked if the athletes have had TUEs in competitions the last years she’s silent due to professional secrecy.

I find it truly incredible that it is allowed to compete with such drugs in the body just if you have a TUE. When you know how wide the conscience in the Norwegian medical team is (calling 15000 microgram of Salbutamol normal and just a mistake not asking for a TUE, handing out Clostebol to treat lips, putting a smorgasbord with asthma medication free to use without a prescription in the wax trailer, bringing 10 Nebulizers to the Olympics), this article – as said – opens up a worm hole with nasty questions.

Part III:
Some hours ago, there was a follow up article by Norwegian television. https://www.tv2.no/a/9678376 They asked Monica Kjeldsberg from Olympiatoppen, head of the Norwegian Medical team:
Have any athletes had TUEs to use the drugs [Kenacort and Celeston] in competition, either in these games or former competitions? We are not asking for names.
She answered that she can’t answer due to professional secrecy.

On a direct question from TV2, The Norwegian Directorate of Health answers that professional secrecy is no obstacle when there’s no possibility to identify single athletes.
Since there is over 100 athletes in this troop, and in addition many hundred more included in the questions “former competition”, its not possible to identify single athletes.

To be continued….

thanks for the info.

you think journos will start asking questions about this apparent contradiction between those two statements?

also, any news on the swedish skiers with dubious blood values?
User avatar meat puppet
Member
 
Posts: 1,962
Joined: 29 May 2011 06:57

15 Feb 2018 08:41

Not any new info bout the two Swedish skiers. In my opinion it concerns two skiers now active in the Ski Classics. The chart in the documentary indicated the 2003 WC. JB was triple bronze medalist.
Discgear
Member
 
Posts: 388
Joined: 04 Mar 2013 09:34

Re: Doping in XC skiing

15 Feb 2018 19:27

Whatever asthma the swedish biathletes got on the flight to South Korea, I want it too. I can't be the only one who finds these results a tiny bit suspicious
User avatar Gigs_98
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,994
Joined: 18 Feb 2015 18:36
Location: Austria

Re: Re:

17 Feb 2018 11:51

Kokoso wrote:
Oude Geuze wrote:@Kokoso: Discgear, wrote: “The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics.”

Amongst others if you “read properly” ;)

I know Dicgear wrote that; so again - nobody ciriticized bringing it to the competition. You've missed the point completely. You've wrote nothing knew; everybody here knows it's useful medication. Even Discgear wrote this: "Celeston is normally just used for tendons, bursals and joints."

What we are criticizing is retroactive TUE based on the athletes decision and using in in the competition, because it's not only medication, but PED too.

So read properly before making conclusions. You seem not bothering understanding what others have written at all. This time you've decided not to react at the point at all, ridiculous.


Hilarious:)
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 148
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

Re: Doping in XC skiing

17 Feb 2018 22:56

Oeberg to me still looks human. I'm becoming a fan. Her skis were the stuff of dreams obviously.
Haga, a bit much form suddenly.
Kruger, same. Not a slow race to catch back up with to dominate.
Samuelson, very much so.
Olsbu, also.
Kuzmina, a bit too good even for even her outstanding track record this season. Muelegg like?
To a lesser degree, Cologna. At least he looks Federer-good.
Dahlmeier, Domracheva, Makarainen, seem more human than usual actually. Extra controls leading up to or during the games?

The way JT Boe and M Fourcade now basically share the ski talent of all the men's biathlon field, is not comfortable to me, at all. It's OK when they dominate everyone like that, but not when a Russian comes to within 2 minutes of them once in a while?
Fak may be a bit too good at peaking. Edited to add that his season started well.
Cloxxki
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,230
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 14:25

Re: Doping in XC skiing

18 Feb 2018 15:29

Cloxxki wrote:Dahlmeier, Domracheva, Makarainen, seem more human than usual actually. Extra controls leading up to or during the games?

Dahlmeier was actually rather mediocre until January. And none of the above has been in dominating form this year.

Ok, Mäkäräinen maybe occasionally, but she is getting old and inconsistent. Anyway, I would argue her ski speed has always been human in championships. She slows down or others peak better? I think the latter.

Yes, I know that her coach prepared Manuela Di Centa and the other Italians very well in the 1990s.
alternator
New Member
 
Posts: 31
Joined: 15 Feb 2014 08:21

Re: Doping in XC skiing

18 Feb 2018 17:56

I don't think Olsbu is suspicious. She's just skiing solidly and has her standing shoot working nicely this year.

Eckhoff is the Norwegian who suddenly found some form in the last event before the Olympics and is the fastest after Kuzmina. Though to be fair to her, she's always fast, its just a question of when she can hit the targets.
William H
Member
 
Posts: 339
Joined: 25 May 2009 12:36

18 Feb 2018 18:32

Yea, Eckhoff has been fast for five seasons now, she was putting in good ski times in December, just shooting badly, and even here, she didn't shoot well in the pursuit but gained several places. With Olsbu I've never quite got over how she suddenly became significantly faster at the home World Championships in Holmenkollen two years ago - she'd been one of those "can potentially contend for the flower ceremony with 19 or 20/20 in a pursuit after a decent sprint, or in an Individual" kind of athletes and then suddenly at those World Championships she could hold off people like Dahlmeier, Dorin Habert and Koukalová on a final lap charge. But I've got used to her being at that level and she was pretty good early in the season.

Kuzmina's year in general I think has been very weird, she was never this fast in peak years even, although it's harder to judge her on equal terms because Domracheva's had almost two years out in the middle of this period (I know, so has Nastya) and Kaisa is the only woman at the forefront of proceedings older than her, and she is getting less consistent now. But Kuzmina has been making people like Denise Herrmann look distinctly average on the skis. The fact that she has this career where she disappears for years at a time for childbirth and other commitments, but always has great form in Olympic seasons, is obviously going to raise a lot of eyebrows. It's not like she's super-peaked for the championships though, but whether that makes it better or worse I don't know, since obviously it's like a bell curve - if you're way above your normal level only at major championships you're an outlier at one end, but if you're one of the best in every single race all season without having any weaker periods, like a Fourcade or Tora Berger a few years ago, then you're an outlier at the other.

Conspicuously absent, however, have been the Americans. They peaked so beautifully for the World Championships last season with Lowell Bailey getting his first career win in the Individual and Susan Dunklee getting a podium in the Mass Start as well. Here, however, the only time I've even heard them mentioned was when the IBU decided at their special committee meeting that they aren't going to cancel the Russian rounds of the World and IBU Cup at Tyumen, Uvat' and Khanty-Mansiysk, and Bailey and Dunklee both whined in the press about it and how they were going to boycott the rounds because they couldn't trust the IBU to be anti-doping unless they prevent any Russian fans getting to see competitions.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,298
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 11:54
Location: Land of Saíz

Re: Doping in XC skiing

18 Feb 2018 22:20

I agree on the Americans. Suspect in a way to peak so badly. Is Diggins the only non-mediocre one left?

While Russia managed to field a strong team on youngsters for the XC men, I don't feel they're more suspect than others. They're a very large skiing nation, and were kind of due for a new generation anyway. The way Klaebo and still Bjoergen ski, anyone who calls out a Russian for being shady is just using double standards. Easy to forget that Sundby had some results taken for taking horse dosages of Salbutamol even without a TUE (the only prime Norwegian to not have one....?) and Johaug missing these Olympics for, well, insulting everyone's intelligence.

Kuzmina is most shady to me alongside Fourcade, JT Boe and Cologna. In Central Europe more is possible than in other places. She is a mother of two now an skiing better than ever. She was really good before, but not dominant like a Neuner or Domracheva at peak. Now, she is.
The fact that Makarainen is hardly ever far outside the fastest doesn't get her a pass from me, espcially the way she choses her helpers. How many trainers do we know who have actually convincingly gone clean after doping the ehck out of athletes? Is it so hard to find a trainer that can offer good insight or encouragement without them having had doped athletes ruin the sport for competitors, spectactors and even politicians?

I have little hope in my heart that within 3% of the fastest skiers these Games we have a truly clean athlete. And to be clear: even if Sundby never takes a single inhale/injection of Salbutamol again, I will never consider him clean again. The bdy changes from those dope levels. Forever.
If the likes of Kuzmina and Fourcade were to be clean, would doping even be worth the effort? But we know it helps humongously, even with today's bio passport and out of competition tests.
Cloxxki
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,230
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 14:25

Re: Doping in XC skiing

18 Feb 2018 23:06

Define peaking beautifully/badly/whatever first.

In the 3 individuals in the 2017 season Bailey was 25th, 26th and 23rd fastest skier.
User avatar roundabout
Veteran
 
Posts: 12,985
Joined: 07 Jun 2010 11:43

Re: Doping in XC skiing

19 Feb 2018 06:56

Cloxxki wrote:Kuzmina is most shady to me alongside Fourcade, JT Boe and Cologna. In Central Europe more is possible than in other places.
Could you elaborate please how is that possible? Btw. Fourcade, JTB and Clogna all train in Central Europe, or what?
Kokoso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,526
Joined: 22 Apr 2012 06:45

Re: Doping in XC skiing

19 Feb 2018 07:02

Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.
Kokoso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,526
Joined: 22 Apr 2012 06:45

Re: Doping in XC skiing

19 Feb 2018 12:37

Kokoso wrote:Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.

everyone in the top10 is suspicious imho.
As Don Catlin said when asked (in Icarus movie/doc) whether the top athletes are using PEDs: "Yes. Every one of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Catlin
- he's author/designer of many of the doping tests and he is very well aware of how easy they can be avoided/fooled/passed.
Shut up, Jens!
glassmoon
Member
 
Posts: 1,204
Joined: 19 May 2012 08:56

19 Feb 2018 13:38

just saw this...on its face, it appears quite significant
https://www.tv2.no/sport/9691235/

norway ,'unlike other nation',will provide information about the therapeutic use exemptions used by the norwegian athletes. the decision came in the aftermath of the criticism norway received after the insane amounts of medication, including the cortisone varieties, they have shipped to the olympics were revealed.

another public relations trick or a genuine attempt at a true transparency ?

make your own decision. i am a skeptic. in part b/c i had been hearing 'we have nothing to hide' from too many who resorted exactly to hiding (or other similar methods) until exposed by the cas/wada/media .
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,726
Joined: 25 Sep 2009 01:01

Re: Doping in XC skiing

20 Feb 2018 08:21

glassmoon wrote:
Kokoso wrote:Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.

everyone in the top10 is suspicious imho.
As Don Catlin said when asked (in Icarus movie/doc) whether the top athletes are using PEDs: "Yes. Every one of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Catlin
- he's author/designer of many of the doping tests and he is very well aware of how easy they can be avoided/fooled/passed.

Pointless reaction. Everyone can be doping. Even those who are not in top ten.
Kokoso
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,526
Joined: 22 Apr 2012 06:45

Re: Doping in XC skiing

20 Feb 2018 22:49

Kokoso wrote:Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.


If I remember correctly USSR was playing with pregnancy (latter abortion) in respect of gymnasts. The reason was, that during pregnancy female body secrete hormones so it was way of doping.

In general I see three main reasons why female athlete can improve after child birth:

1. hormones and therefore ability to train harder
2. at least one year break of career therefore they are rested (OK, at least in respect of sport)
3. in general they are mentally more relaxed and take the sport more easy

But I cannot comment Kuzmina specifically, since I am not watching Olympics since I do not agree with behaviour of IOC towards Russians eventhough I never prayed for them.
lartiste
Junior Member
 
Posts: 157
Joined: 29 Jul 2016 21:47

Re: Doping in XC skiing

21 Feb 2018 06:34

Kokoso wrote:Pointless reaction. Everyone can be doping. Even those who are not in top ten.

Everyone can be doping, exactly true.

But even without going to world of increased future incomes or other intangible benefits associated with PED-related increased performance, if we simply assume that the dopers gain a significant advantage, it is very likely that they should be overrepresented at the top because they have the tendency to outperform the clean athletes.

This is fifteen years old news, but the blood data collected at the FIS 2001 Lahti World Championships from endurance type of events analyzed by Dr. Jim Stray-Gundersen and a few other researchers supports this claim, when the "suspicious" blood values were almost exclusively distributed at the top-10:

(black dots = highly abnormal values, grey dots= abnormal)
Image
It wasn't just hemoglobin and reticulocytes they looked at, but there were also other parameters, if my memory is sound.
User avatar Aragon
Junior Member
 
Posts: 179
Joined: 29 Aug 2016 17:44
Location: Finland

Re: Doping in XC skiing

21 Feb 2018 07:51

Kokoso wrote:
glassmoon wrote:
Kokoso wrote:Kuzmina is suspicious. Fastest ever on skis even despite not very good technique. Whether children have to do something with that is a question. I've heard that after giving a birth you actually gain endurance. One such example would be Dorin-Habert in previous seasons. She was fastest ever after child. Speaking about her, she's another one very suspicious. She got really bad given her previous standard. Another suspicious one is Domracheva. Pretty subpar.

everyone in the top10 is suspicious imho.
As Don Catlin said when asked (in Icarus movie/doc) whether the top athletes are using PEDs: "Yes. Every one of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Catlin
- he's author/designer of many of the doping tests and he is very well aware of how easy they can be avoided/fooled/passed.

Pointless reaction. Everyone can be doping. Even those who are not in top ten.

Of course. But those in top10 are kinda... certain :D (imho - history just confirms it. yeah i am way beyond the fairy tales and super(wo)men :mad: )
Shut up, Jens!
glassmoon
Member
 
Posts: 1,204
Joined: 19 May 2012 08:56

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: beowulf, deneb, Google Adsense [Bot], HelmutRoole, OldCranky, TheGreenMonkey, Zinoviev Letter and 46 guests

Back to top