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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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11 Feb 2018 14:19

Discgear wrote:The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics. The medical leader Mona Kjeldsberg comforts that generally speaking its not used that much by their athletes. https://www.tv2.no/sport/9669801/

Sorry for quoting myself, but this article actually is quite disturbing and sensational. It opens up a worm hole of thoughts concerning the way TUEs are handled. Kenacort and Celeston were drugs central in the Wiggins scandal and Kenacort was found in Armstrong positives. Michael Rasmussen is quoted saying: Those are monsterdopes in terms of performance enhancing. He continues: Celeston is as powerful as Kenacort. It was used a lot both at Rabobank and CSC. Both Kenacort and Celeston are frequently used as performance enhancing drugs in cycling.

The article quotes another three bicyclists and dopers all witnessing about the enormous effects with the drugs, putting both Testosteron and EPO in the shadows.

Now to the sensational part where the head of the Norwegian medical team, Mona Kjeldsberg, between the lines reveals quite a lot. She defends use of the drugs because they can be used for allergic reactions, and Tendinitis. She also talks about putting a syringe in the muscles with a TUE granted by IOC or ADAMS. She continues to say that the drugs generally speaking are not used that much by their athletes and points out: Celeston is normally just used for tendons, bursals and joints. When asked if the athletes have had TUEs in competitions the last years she’s silent due to professional secrecy.

I find it truly incredible that it is allowed to compete with such drugs in the body just if you have a TUE. When you know how wide the conscience in the Norwegian medical team is (calling 15000 microgram of Salbutamol normal and just a mistake not asking for a TUE, handing out Clostebol to treat lips, putting a smorgasbord with asthma medication free to use without a prescription in the wax trailer, bringing 10 Nebulizers to the Olympics), this article – as said – opens up a worm hole with nasty questions.
Discgear
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Feb 2018 15:24

Are TUE's a declaration from a team doctor that an otherwise banned substance is being used, or must an application be made to use a substance? In which case, are they ever refused?
Blaaswix
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Feb 2018 16:53

Blaaswix wrote:Are TUE's a declaration from a team doctor that an otherwise banned substance is being used, or must an application be made to use a substance? In which case, are they ever refused?

Not so difficult to find ways using those monster dopes. Just a medic with liberal conscience.
From WADA guidelines:

ASTHMA
Systemic glucocorticoids:
The systemic use (e.g. oral or intravenous administration) of glucocorticoids is prohibited incompetition only and requires a TUE if the athlete competes before the drug has ceased to be identifiable in his/her urine. In emergency situations, a retroactive TUE application should be submitted as soon as possible to the appropriate anti-doping organization if the athlete intends to compete while taking the systemic GC or soon afterwards.

MUSCULOSKELETAL CONDITIONS
Systemic glucocorticoids:
However, it should be noted again that the use of GCs invokes the TUE process only when these agents are administered via oral, rectal, intramuscular or intravenous routes and are taken just prior to or during a competition. GC administration via all other routes is permitted without a TUE at all times.
Discgear
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Re:

11 Feb 2018 18:15

Discgear wrote:The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics. The medical leader Mona Kjeldsberg comforts that generally speaking its not used that much by their athletes. https://www.tv2.no/sport/9669801/

Limited hangout. Nothing new, nothing sensational - it's just Sky-type gray area bullshit. What is interesting is that they felt the need to talk about this at such an early stage. Times have changed.
Lyon
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Feb 2018 19:29

Very informative, Discgear.

These things shouldn't be 'grey areas'. They shouldn't be happening.
Blaaswix
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Feb 2018 07:18

Blaaswix wrote:Very informative, Discgear.

These things shouldn't be 'grey areas'. They shouldn't be happening.

What shouldn't be happening?
Kokoso
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Feb 2018 08:32

Kokoso wrote:
Blaaswix wrote:Very informative, Discgear.

These things shouldn't be 'grey areas'. They shouldn't be happening.

What shouldn't be happening?

Blaaswix can answer on his/her own behalf, but I do agree that this shouldn't be happening. An athlete should of course have the right to be treated with the mest medicaments available when having health problems. But, the right to compete with those medicaments in the body, especially with well documented performance enhancing effects, should be taken away. The whole TUE system is misused and a complete joke.
Discgear
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Feb 2018 09:15

Discgear wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
Blaaswix wrote:Very informative, Discgear.

These things shouldn't be 'grey areas'. They shouldn't be happening.

What shouldn't be happening?

Blaaswix can answer on his/her own behalf, but I do agree that this shouldn't be happening. An athlete should of course have the right to be treated with the mest medicaments available when having health problems. But, the right to compete with those medicaments in the body, especially with well documented performance enhancing effects, should be taken away. The whole TUE system is misused and a complete joke.

TUE system isn't complete joke, only partly. I agree that retroactive TUE issued if the athlete intends to compete shouldn't exist. That really is a joke. I also agree that athlete shouldn't compete whihle under performance enhancing drug, as with Wiggin's case. But if there is emergency situation, of course athlete has to have a right to use performance enhancing drug (such as Kenacort) and that's what TUE should be for.

Also I think any subtance even only suspicious for performance enhancing effects shouldn't be allowed. Such as salbutamol and other B-2 agonists. Why are they allowed when WADA knows they can enhance performance at least in certain circumstance's, that't beyond me.

P.S. I don't know whether Blaaswix would react, maybe that's good you'd reacted. Last time we've had a discussion Blaaswix torebeard :) (that means there was silence when he realized he's wrong).
Kokoso
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Feb 2018 17:44

Discgear wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
Blaaswix wrote:Very informative, Discgear.

These things shouldn't be 'grey areas'. They shouldn't be happening.

What shouldn't be happening?

Blaaswix can answer on his/her own behalf, but I do agree that this shouldn't be happening. An athlete should of course have the right to be treated with the mest medicaments available when having health problems. But, the right to compete with those medicaments in the body, especially with well documented performance enhancing effects, should be taken away. The whole TUE system is misused and a complete joke.

Indeed. Call it a quarantine period rather than a suspension.
Blaaswix
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12 Feb 2018 18:10

So what about Samuelsson? Pretty suspicious.
Kokoso
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Re:

12 Feb 2018 20:21

Kokoso wrote:So what about Samuelsson? Pretty suspicious.

Even the Austrian commentators were a bit sceptical durning the race.
Not a single top 10 in the world cup, good but not exactly a world beater in the junior ranks and then such a skiing performance in 2 consecutive races, it is pretty suspicious.
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Re: Re:

12 Feb 2018 21:13

Mayomaniac wrote:
Kokoso wrote:So what about Samuelsson? Pretty suspicious.

Even the Austrian commentators were a bit sceptical durning the race.
Not a single top 10 in the world cup, good but not exactly a world beater in the junior ranks and then such a skiing performance in 2 consecutive races, it is pretty suspicious.

Real surprise but quite lucky that most of the favourites performed like horses as..s.
7th course time. 9th cumulative time.

Edit: also rookie of the year 2017 being 19.
http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/swedish-sweep-rookie-awards-to-hanna-oberg-and-sebastian-samuelsson
Discgear
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12 Feb 2018 21:22

Not really commenting on wether or not the Norwegian team brought the right amount of asthma medication or not, but Kenacort and Celestone is pretty basic medication that every countries medical team have at their disposal. Celestone is an injectable steroid usually reserved for local treatment of painful joints and tendons. Kenacort is mostly used for long term allergy prevention (in my experience). It would be very strange not to bring it to an athletic competition, almost negligent by any team doctor. Labeling these staple drugs as “monster drugs” or that “it should not happen!” is severely poisoning the well. It’s how you use them, which is what WADA tries to control.

So please turn down the hyperbole a few notches and research a bit before drawing conclusions.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
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Re:

12 Feb 2018 22:25

Oude Geuze wrote:Not really commenting on wether or not the Norwegian team brought the right amount of asthma medication or not, but Kenacort and Celestone is pretty basic medication that every countries medical team have at their disposal. Celestone is an injectable steroid usually reserved for local treatment of painful joints and tendons. Kenacort is mostly used for long term allergy prevention (in my experience). It would be very strange not to bring it to an athletic competition, almost negligent by any team doctor. Labeling these staple drugs as “monster drugs” or that “it should not happen!” is severely poisoning the well. It’s how you use them, which is what WADA tries to control.

So please turn down the hyperbole a few notches and research a bit before drawing conclusions.


I agree on the medical need, but those drugs are also PED's.

So the best and cleanest for everyone would allow those only via public TUE with i.e. 5 days ban from competition after taking it. Would be much more fair than any current TUE misuse.
bambino
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Re: Re:

13 Feb 2018 06:22

Discgear wrote:
Mayomaniac wrote:
Kokoso wrote:So what about Samuelsson? Pretty suspicious.

Even the Austrian commentators were a bit sceptical durning the race.
Not a single top 10 in the world cup, good but not exactly a world beater in the junior ranks and then such a skiing performance in 2 consecutive races, it is pretty suspicious.

Real surprise but quite lucky that most of the favourites performed like horses as..s.
7th course time. 9th cumulative time.

Edit: also rookie of the year 2017 being 19.
http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/swedish-sweep-rookie-awards-to-hanna-oberg-and-sebastian-samuelsson

What are you talking about? 3rd and 1st course time at olympics so far. Compare that to his previous sprint and pursuite course time this season.

I smell hypocrisy...
Kokoso
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Re:

13 Feb 2018 06:36

Oude Geuze wrote:Not really commenting on wether or not the Norwegian team brought the right amount of asthma medication or not, but Kenacort and Celestone is pretty basic medication that every countries medical team have at their disposal. Celestone is an injectable steroid usually reserved for local treatment of painful joints and tendons. Kenacort is mostly used for long term allergy prevention (in my experience). It would be very strange not to bring it to an athletic competition, almost negligent by any team doctor. Labeling these staple drugs as “monster drugs” or that “it should not happen!” is severely poisoning the well. It’s how you use them, which is what WADA tries to control.

So please turn down the hyperbole a few notches and research a bit before drawing conclusions.

Nobody ciriticized bringing it to the competition. You've missed the point completely. You've snothing knew; everybody here knows it's useful medication. Wha we are criticizing is retropactive TUE based on the athletes decision and using in in the competition, because it's not only medication, but PED too.

So read properly before making conclusions.
Kokoso
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13 Feb 2018 07:06

Kokoso, you're correct about Samuelsson. My bad. Didn't notice all the columns of the data sheet viewing it on the mobile. Troubling.
Discgear
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13 Feb 2018 15:00

@Kokoso: Discgear, wrote: “The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics.”

Amongst others if you “read properly” ;)
Last edited by Oude Geuze on 13 Feb 2018 18:50, edited 1 time in total.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
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Re:

13 Feb 2018 17:15

Oude Geuze wrote:Discgear, quote: “The heat is on. Norwegian TV reveals that the Norwegian medical team has brought – apart from a truckload of asthma medication earlier mentioned – the dynamite drugs Kenacort and Celeston to the Olympics.”

Amongst others if you “read properly” ;)

Yes. Kenacort and Celeston are the performance enhancing drugs mentioned.

...på listen finner man imidlertid stoffer som har langt større prestasjonsfremmende effekt enn astmamedisin. Kenacort og Celeston er to av de.

translated:
...however, on the list there are substances that have a far greater performance-enhancing effect than asthma medicin.
Kenacort and Celeston are two of them.


And your point is?
Discgear
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13 Feb 2018 18:45

That was a response to kokoso, I will add an @, sorry.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
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