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Doping in XC skiing

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Re: Doping in XC skiing

17 Mar 2017 19:38

Weng definitely took over Johaug's mantle of screaming like a maniac at the finish. And it's not even the final. Roid rage?
BullsFan22
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17 Mar 2017 19:42

Last in the final now though. Feels good :)
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17 Mar 2017 19:45

Heidi's always been loud like that though (on track at least, off-track she's been responsible for some of the most inaudible, awkward interviews ever), it's just that for years she wasn't getting the chance to show it all that often. There was one hilarious one last season (Lahti I think?) where she decided for some reason to scream in English, so we got "YESSSSSS!!!!"

Still, her sprint had been getting ever better over the last couple of years, there was a time not that long ago when last in the final would have been a pretty good sprint day out for her.
Last edited by Libertine Seguros on 17 Mar 2017 19:47, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 19:46

Cloxxki wrote:I meant Fourcade's birthday bashing.



That and the fact he blatantly obstructed Loginov at the changeover, causing Loginov to fall and also cut Shipulin off at the end of that same race as well.
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 19:48

Libertine Seguros wrote:Heidi's always been loud like that though (on track at least, off-track she's been responsible for some of the most inaudible, awkward interviews ever)

That fits very well actually.
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 19:50

Libertine Seguros wrote:Heidi's always been loud like that though (on track at least, off-track she's been responsible for some of the most inaudible, awkward interviews ever), it's just that for years she wasn't getting the chance to show it all that often. There was one hilarious one last season (Lahti I think?) where she decided for some reason to scream in English, so we got "YESSSSSS!!!!"

Still, her sprint had been getting ever better over the last couple of years, there was a time not that long ago when last in the final would have been a pretty good sprint day out for her.



I have a better example. The top of Alpe Cermis was some of the most ridiculous screaming I have ever heard.
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 19:53

BullsFan22 wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:Heidi's always been loud like that though (on track at least, off-track she's been responsible for some of the most inaudible, awkward interviews ever), it's just that for years she wasn't getting the chance to show it all that often. There was one hilarious one last season (Lahti I think?) where she decided for some reason to scream in English, so we got "YESSSSSS!!!!"

Still, her sprint had been getting ever better over the last couple of years, there was a time not that long ago when last in the final would have been a pretty good sprint day out for her.



I have a better example. The top of Alpe Cermis was some of the most ridiculous screaming I have ever heard.

I thought of that example more because it was strange than because of it being her most OTT screaming. That was probably when she won the Lillehammer sprint.
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17 Mar 2017 20:05

Oh well, compared to women's tennis...
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19 Mar 2017 10:13

Biathlon:
Koakalova refused to shake hands with Andres Besseberg (president of IBU) during the small globe ceremony for sprint discipline. Reason would be his weak stand and lack of action in widespread doping scandal (among the russian athletes). He has been also criticized by Fourcade, Slesingr, Bailey and other athletes... He reportedly gave her the "wtf look" and she just replied: "I'm sorry (I can't)". According to her, he should have been fired/resigned long time ago as he is more representing his well being rather the athletes' interests.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

19 Mar 2017 16:45

BullsFan22 wrote:Weng definitely took over Johaug's mantle of screaming like a maniac at the finish. And it's not even the final. Roid rage?


Aparently she celebrated her winning the world cup. She getting through the heat, while Parmakoski did not.

I would say winning the big globe is a good excuse for a little screaming. :lol:
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Re:

19 Mar 2017 16:49

glassmoon wrote:Biathlon:
Koakalova refused to shake hands with Andres Besseberg (president of IBU) during the small globe ceremony for sprint discipline. Reason would be his weak stand and lack of action in widespread doping scandal (among the russian athletes). He has been also criticized by Fourcade, Slesingr, Bailey and other athletes... He reportedly gave her the "wtf look" and she just replied: "I'm sorry (I can't)". According to her, he should have been fired/resigned long time ago as he is more representing his well being rather the athletes' interests.

What action was he supposed to take? 31 names were announced. 22 have been cleared.* 3 have been suspended (Romanova, Vilukhina, Glazyrina). 6 remain under investigation.

It's the same dogs shouting every time, Martin Fourcade, the US and the Czech teams. The Czechs have had a real upswing in attention to the sport in recent years and have really come to prominence, and certainly the marginalization of the Russians would benefit them (guarantor of an annual event in Nové Město, which for reasons of crowd size and atmosphere should be a given at this point anyway, they're the best placed venue to replace the profitable Russian rounds financially for that reason too, as well as that the Czechs are now well established as the 6th best team on the men's side, behind the big four and Austria), Fourcade's beef seems to be purely personal as he's managed to keep his relationships with some of the more established Russian athletes ok, and the US interest in it is purely political.

The biggest problem for me with the handling of the Russians here is, do the IBU have the authority to ban, suspend or remove people not from competition but from the structure of the SBR? Because that's what needs doing. There are 20 potentially innocent athletes whose names are being dragged through the mud for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and only one of the athletes presently suspended was an active athlete anyway (Glazyrina), so what real value does banning people who are already retired have.

Now, Koukalová's contention that Besseberg and the other high-ups in the sport are more concerned about their own position than cleaning up the sport? That may have some legs. Certainly the IBU is far from blameless in the corruption game (as anybody familiar with the name "Gottlieb Taschler" can attest - it's only this year and under heavy pressure from the national federations that Gottlieb was removed from his post as organizer of the Antholz round). And the profitability of Russia for the sport of biathlon, where it is the wintersport par excellence, naturally creates a conflict between morals and finance in cases like this. But Besseberg has always maintained, and I think it is absolutely right in this case, that they cannot suspend or ban athletes - even less entire nations - on the basis of a suspicion. Where there has been sufficient evidence, there have been bans (although I'm not sure why Lapshin is still out there, I have to say, given Glazyrina's out). There are 12 athletes who attended a camp for the Junior team in Sochi in January 2014, who will have been 18-20 at the time, and only appear in the McLaren report on the basis of one test, done on that date. 11 of them came back clean, the 12th had a sample with no result logged. That's all there is against them. Can you really justify banning a dozen athletes on that evidence? I don't think you can. Now, whether they're being rather lax in some of the investigations is a further question (again, to my untrained eye the case against Timofey Lapshin would seem rather cut and dried, but he's still racing, albeit for South Korea - that's another problem, also - ban Russia from competition and all you'll find is an even bigger influx of Russians getting passports for various neighbouring states and CIS countries in order to continue their careers - we've already seen Russian-born athletes competing for Kazakhstan, Korea, Belarus, Ukraine, Armenia and even Sweden the last few years. And that screws over the athletes from those countries who get fewer opportunities as a result.

*actually only 20, this was an error on my part. 22 athletes have been cleared because of either "absence of evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the athlete" or "the athlete has already been punished for the indiscretions covered in the report" - this latter heading applies to Starykh, who was removed from competition during the period covered, and also Loginov, whose offences are within the timeframe covered, but this was already discovered in November 2014 and so he has already served his suspension for the offences listed in the report. The other Russian banned at this time, Ekaterina Iourieva, does not appear in the report and it appears to be thought that at the time covered by the report she was doping independently to try to force back into the team rather than being part of a centralized program.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 19:13

Libertine Seguros wrote:
glassmoon wrote:Biathlon:
Koakalova refused to shake hands with Andres Besseberg (president of IBU) during the small globe ceremony for sprint discipline. Reason would be his weak stand and lack of action in widespread doping scandal (among the russian athletes). He has been also criticized by Fourcade, Slesingr, Bailey and other athletes... He reportedly gave her the "wtf look" and she just replied: "I'm sorry (I can't)". According to her, he should have been fired/resigned long time ago as he is more representing his well being rather the athletes' interests.

What action was he supposed to take? 31 names were announced. 22 have been cleared.* 3 have been suspended (Romanova, Vilukhina, Glazyrina). 6 remain under investigation.

It's the same dogs shouting every time, Martin Fourcade, the US and the Czech teams. The Czechs have had a real upswing in attention to the sport in recent years and have really come to prominence, and certainly the marginalization of the Russians would benefit them (guarantor of an annual event in Nové Město, which for reasons of crowd size and atmosphere should be a given at this point anyway, they're the best placed venue to replace the profitable Russian rounds financially for that reason too, as well as that the Czechs are now well established as the 6th best team on the men's side, behind the big four and Austria), Fourcade's beef seems to be purely personal as he's managed to keep his relationships with some of the more established Russian athletes ok, and the US interest in it is purely political.

The biggest problem for me with the handling of the Russians here is, do the IBU have the authority to ban, suspend or remove people not from competition but from the structure of the SBR? Because that's what needs doing. There are 20 potentially innocent athletes whose names are being dragged through the mud for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and only one of the athletes presently suspended was an active athlete anyway (Glazyrina), so what real value does banning people who are already retired have.

Now, Koukalová's contention that Besseberg and the other high-ups in the sport are more concerned about their own position than cleaning up the sport? That may have some legs. Certainly the IBU is far from blameless in the corruption game (as anybody familiar with the name "Gottlieb Taschler" can attest - it's only this year and under heavy pressure from the national federations that Gottlieb was removed from his post as organizer of the Antholz round). And the profitability of Russia for the sport of biathlon, where it is the wintersport par excellence, naturally creates a conflict between morals and finance in cases like this. But Besseberg has always maintained, and I think it is absolutely right in this case, that they cannot suspend or ban athletes - even less entire nations - on the basis of a suspicion. Where there has been sufficient evidence, there have been bans (although I'm not sure why Lapshin is still out there, I have to say, given Glazyrina's out). There are 12 athletes who attended a camp for the Junior team in Sochi in January 2014, who will have been 18-20 at the time, and only appear in the McLaren report on the basis of one test, done on that date. 11 of them came back clean, the 12th had a sample with no result logged. That's all there is against them. Can you really justify banning a dozen athletes on that evidence? I don't think you can. Now, whether they're being rather lax in some of the investigations is a further question (again, to my untrained eye the case against Timofey Lapshin would seem rather cut and dried, but he's still racing, albeit for South Korea - that's another problem, also - ban Russia from competition and all you'll find is an even bigger influx of Russians getting passports for various neighbouring states and CIS countries in order to continue their careers - we've already seen Russian-born athletes competing for Kazakhstan, Korea, Belarus, Ukraine, Armenia and even Sweden the last few years. And that screws over the athletes from those countries who get fewer opportunities as a result.

*actually only 20, this was an error on my part. 22 athletes have been cleared because of either "absence of evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the athlete" or "the athlete has already been punished for the indiscretions covered in the report" - this latter heading applies to Starykh, who was removed from competition during the period covered, and also Loginov, whose offences are within the timeframe covered, but this was already discovered in November 2014 and so he has already served his suspension for the offences listed in the report. The other Russian banned at this time, Ekaterina Iourieva, does not appear in the report and it appears to be thought that at the time covered by the report she was doping independently to try to force back into the team rather than being part of a centralized program.


Good post. To add to this from the xc perspective, Belov and Legkov were accused of doping at races they didn't even take part in, and that's one of the basis that FIS looked at. No positive tests, but apparent change of samples which the athletes played on part in. FIS was probably pressured to take some action and suspend the athletes otherwise they would have heard it from WADA and the politically motivated athletes on tour.
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 22:12

Libertine Seguros wrote:
glassmoon wrote:Biathlon:
Koakalova refused to shake hands with Andres Besseberg (president of IBU) during the small globe ceremony for sprint discipline. Reason would be his weak stand and lack of action in widespread doping scandal (among the russian athletes). He has been also criticized by Fourcade, Slesingr, Bailey and other athletes... He reportedly gave her the "wtf look" and she just replied: "I'm sorry (I can't)". According to her, he should have been fired/resigned long time ago as he is more representing his well being rather the athletes' interests.

What action was he supposed to take? 31 names were announced. 22 have been cleared.* 3 have been suspended (Romanova, Vilukhina, Glazyrina). 6 remain under investigation.

It's the same dogs shouting every time, Martin Fourcade, the US and the Czech teams. The Czechs have had a real upswing in attention to the sport in recent years and have really come to prominence, and certainly the marginalization of the Russians would benefit them (guarantor of an annual event in Nové Město, which for reasons of crowd size and atmosphere should be a given at this point anyway, they're the best placed venue to replace the profitable Russian rounds financially for that reason too, as well as that the Czechs are now well established as the 6th best team on the men's side, behind the big four and Austria), Fourcade's beef seems to be purely personal as he's managed to keep his relationships with some of the more established Russian athletes ok, and the US interest in it is purely political.

The biggest problem for me with the handling of the Russians here is, do the IBU have the authority to ban, suspend or remove people not from competition but from the structure of the SBR? Because that's what needs doing. There are 20 potentially innocent athletes whose names are being dragged through the mud for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and only one of the athletes presently suspended was an active athlete anyway (Glazyrina), so what real value does banning people who are already retired have.

Now, Koukalová's contention that Besseberg and the other high-ups in the sport are more concerned about their own position than cleaning up the sport? That may have some legs. Certainly the IBU is far from blameless in the corruption game (as anybody familiar with the name "Gottlieb Taschler" can attest - it's only this year and under heavy pressure from the national federations that Gottlieb was removed from his post as organizer of the Antholz round). And the profitability of Russia for the sport of biathlon, where it is the wintersport par excellence, naturally creates a conflict between morals and finance in cases like this. But Besseberg has always maintained, and I think it is absolutely right in this case, that they cannot suspend or ban athletes - even less entire nations - on the basis of a suspicion. Where there has been sufficient evidence, there have been bans (although I'm not sure why Lapshin is still out there, I have to say, given Glazyrina's out). There are 12 athletes who attended a camp for the Junior team in Sochi in January 2014, who will have been 18-20 at the time, and only appear in the McLaren report on the basis of one test, done on that date. 11 of them came back clean, the 12th had a sample with no result logged. That's all there is against them. Can you really justify banning a dozen athletes on that evidence? I don't think you can. Now, whether they're being rather lax in some of the investigations is a further question (again, to my untrained eye the case against Timofey Lapshin would seem rather cut and dried, but he's still racing, albeit for South Korea - that's another problem, also - ban Russia from competition and all you'll find is an even bigger influx of Russians getting passports for various neighbouring states and CIS countries in order to continue their careers - we've already seen Russian-born athletes competing for Kazakhstan, Korea, Belarus, Ukraine, Armenia and even Sweden the last few years. And that screws over the athletes from those countries who get fewer opportunities as a result.

*actually only 20, this was an error on my part. 22 athletes have been cleared because of either "absence of evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the athlete" or "the athlete has already been punished for the indiscretions covered in the report" - this latter heading applies to Starykh, who was removed from competition during the period covered, and also Loginov, whose offences are within the timeframe covered, but this was already discovered in November 2014 and so he has already served his suspension for the offences listed in the report. The other Russian banned at this time, Ekaterina Iourieva, does not appear in the report and it appears to be thought that at the time covered by the report she was doping independently to try to force back into the team rather than being part of a centralized program.

dunno, i didn't follow the case in depth. but I'd imagine that top tier athletes in the corresponding sport know better than me/us. he was criticized by many and for rather long time so i guess: respect to those who stood up.
:idea:
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19 Mar 2017 23:15

The problem is, it's being reported as if the whole problem - and the athletes' petition that was rejected that led to the US and CZE delegations and Fourcade walking out of the meeting at Antholz - is to do with the handling of the Russians in the wake of the McLaren report, and frankly given some of the concerns about the report and the fact that 2/3 the athletes named in it have since been cleared, it's difficult to see what exactly they are supposed to have done. A lot hinges, like I said, on whether they are able to take action not against the Russian athletes but the SBR, because that's where the problem lies. I think that while Besseberg may anger the Americans and the Czechs with a lack of action and hoping the investigations will sort out enough bad apples to keep people happy, there's not really much of a middle ground to be taken, and any swifter, heavier action against athletes would lead to some pretty tail-between-the-legs backing down once so many of them were cleared of wrongdoing.

If the concerns are more wide-reaching ones and the reportage reducing it down to the Russia issue is inaccurate, then it does them a disservice. The fact that the two countries who've raised the most concerns and made the most fuss on this issue (and indeed, apart from Fourcade, all the athletes you name are from those two countries) are the countries that have the most to gain (either politically or sport-wise) may be coincidental, or it may not. YMMV. There are many issues with the running of the sport and plenty of reasons to critique the people in charge, however while I'm sure some of it is, I don't think all of the anti-Russia posturing is rooted in an altruistic commitment to cleaner sport.
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19 Mar 2017 23:51

glassmoon, respect for speaking up !

yet keep in mind, as libertine expressed a lot more nicely than i ever could given my lack of following the shooting skiers sport, some athletes (and fourcade with koakalova far from only examples) are likely seeking attention.

would in my opinion the czech republic's NATURAL urge to host a world cup event matter in the koakalova self-serving verbosity ? my opinion - not likely.

would the anti-doping verbosity of ANY current athlete (them being biathletes is besides the point) relieve them from being dopers ?

the experience tells us - the more they scream about others being cheaters, the more we should scrutinize the screamers...
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 08:00

Libertine Seguros wrote:
glassmoon wrote:Biathlon:
Koakalova refused to shake hands with Andres Besseberg (president of IBU) during the small globe ceremony for sprint discipline. Reason would be his weak stand and lack of action in widespread doping scandal (among the russian athletes). He has been also criticized by Fourcade, Slesingr, Bailey and other athletes... He reportedly gave her the "wtf look" and she just replied: "I'm sorry (I can't)". According to her, he should have been fired/resigned long time ago as he is more representing his well being rather the athletes' interests.

What action was he supposed to take?

What action? Not to give Tyumen World Championship at time when nobody should give Russia organizing of any such event. With that your question and basically all your post is answered sufficiently.

Because rest of your post risis from wrong speculation and wrongfull generalization, following doesn't relate to the point, but since you are talking about that:
There are 20 potentially innocent athletes whose names are being dragged through the mud for being in the wrong place at the wrong time

Names of that athletes werent publicized, I don't see how are they are "dragged through the mud"?

There are 12 athletes who attended a camp for the Junior team in Sochi in January 2014, who will have been 18-20 at the time, and only appear in the McLaren report on the basis of one test, done on that date. 11 of them came back clean, the 12th had a sample with no result logged. That's all there is against them. Can you really justify banning a dozen athletes on that evidence?

I don't think it's right to link this speculation with Koukalova's action. She wasn't calling for that.You are dragging Koukalova name through the mud here in your post, my friend.

Ban Russia from competition and all you'll find is an even bigger influx of Russians getting passports for various neighbouring states and CIS countries in order to continue their careers - we've already seen Russian-born athletes competing for Kazakhstan, Korea, Belarus, Ukraine, Armenia and even Sweden the last few years. And that screws over the athletes from those countries who get fewer opportunities as a result.
Nobody was calling for banning Russia from competition. Again - misleading, pointless post that only casts bad light on Koukalova and that "same dogs" to whom you've somehow managed to generalize your post wrongfully.

It's the same dogs shouting every time, Martin Fourcade, the US and the Czech teams.

It is wrongfull, or unjusitified generalization (because I don't see how the rest of them relate to Koukalova not shaking hand with Besseberg). I find it disturbing you calling athletes and others conneted to this "same dogs shouting", because one can sense some scorn in that and when you consider it's actaully wrongfull generalization... And it's misleading too, becuase actually it is not only about Fourcade, US and Czech team. Most of teams signed the petition.

This is not first time your are actually wrongfully casting bad light to those included.
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 08:40

Libertine Seguros wrote:The problem is, it's being reported as if the whole problem - and the athletes' petition that was rejected that led to the US and CZE delegations and Fourcade walking out of the meeting at Antholz - is to do with the handling of the Russians in the wake of the McLaren report, and frankly given some of the concerns about the report and the fact that 2/3 the athletes named in it have since been cleared, it's difficult to see what exactly they are supposed to have done. A lot hinges, like I said, on whether they are able to take action not against the Russian athletes but the SBR, because that's where the problem lies. I think that while Besseberg may anger the Americans and the Czechs with a lack of action and hoping the investigations will sort out enough bad apples to keep people happy, there's not really much of a middle ground to be taken, and any swifter, heavier action against athletes would lead to some pretty tail-between-the-legs backing down once so many of them were cleared of wrongdoing.

If the concerns are more wide-reaching ones and the reportage reducing it down to the Russia issue is inaccurate, then it does them a disservice. The fact that the two countries who've raised the most concerns and made the most fuss on this issue (and indeed, apart from Fourcade, all the athletes you name are from those two countries) are the countries that have the most to gain (either politically or sport-wise) may be coincidental, or it may not. YMMV. There are many issues with the running of the sport and plenty of reasons to critique the people in charge, however while I'm sure some of it is, I don't think all of the anti-Russia posturing is rooted in an altruistic commitment to cleaner sport.

Pointless post since it again stems from Koukalova not shaking Besseberg's hand; which you've automatically assigned to not suspeding or banning suspicious Russian athletes, or even all Russian athletes.

I don't quite understand how you've managed to include the petition there. The points of the petition had nothing to do with requirement for swifter action against Russian athletes (or as you've called it "baying for the Russians to be banned outright" - which is blatant lie).
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20 Mar 2017 10:07

All this talk of Russian doping in biathlon, but where are the suspicious performances?
USA is nice and vocal, but does any woman from Biathlon superpower Russia come close to Dunklee's Gunda Niemann-Klemann'esque speed?
Shipulin is quick enough, but can't stay with the astma train let alone the über-clean Fourcade. And really we should not for a second underestimate the shear size of biathlon in Russia, and the individual commitment athletes in all sports put in over there.

We get so much suspicious, intrigue, bans, sanctions, but no Muelegg like performances. If anything, the above mentioned and the Austrians have been much more suspect. Koukalova as on of the vocal ones at least, hasn't shown unbeatable ski speed for a few years. She was really strong for a while though. Perhaps in part by being so steady in the shoot, able to come in quite hot?
In the women's field, Dahlmeier is playing out a role much like Bjoerndalen and Fourcade. A bit separated from the national team, really springy skiing. Skipping races, fragile health.

If doping is to be the blood variety, well trained talented Russians should be lighting up the sport, making Fourcade look flat. How many % of superiority from pure talent can we attribute to Fourcade against the best of large ski/biathlon nations? I've said it before, but I'm getting a Lance vibe with him. Kicking down, big mouth, and can't lose when it matters, makes all he regards as dopers look slow/untalented.
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 12:33

Cloxxki wrote:All this talk of Russian doping in biathlon, but where are the suspicious performances?
USA is nice and vocal, but does any woman from Biathlon superpower Russia come close to Dunklee's Gunda Niemann-Klemann'esque speed?
Shipulin is quick enough, but can't stay with the astma train let alone the über-clean Fourcade.

Who would that be?
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 12:50

kingjr wrote:Shipulin is quick enough, but can't stay with the astma train let alone the über-clean Fourcade.

Who would that be?

Johannes Boe, although not at his best in Oslo, the races I've seen so far. Fourcade bitch slapped him around the course. The Norwegian biathlon men are not like their XC ladies, of course. And I would have to get confirmation (if that even exists) on Boe's asthma status.
Last edited by Cloxxki on 20 Mar 2017 14:13, edited 1 time in total.
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