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Doping in XC skiing

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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 13:00

Kokoso wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:The problem is, it's being reported as if the whole problem - and the athletes' petition that was rejected that led to the US and CZE delegations and Fourcade walking out of the meeting at Antholz - is to do with the handling of the Russians in the wake of the McLaren report, and frankly given some of the concerns about the report and the fact that 2/3 the athletes named in it have since been cleared, it's difficult to see what exactly they are supposed to have done. A lot hinges, like I said, on whether they are able to take action not against the Russian athletes but the SBR, because that's where the problem lies. I think that while Besseberg may anger the Americans and the Czechs with a lack of action and hoping the investigations will sort out enough bad apples to keep people happy, there's not really much of a middle ground to be taken, and any swifter, heavier action against athletes would lead to some pretty tail-between-the-legs backing down once so many of them were cleared of wrongdoing.

If the concerns are more wide-reaching ones and the reportage reducing it down to the Russia issue is inaccurate, then it does them a disservice. The fact that the two countries who've raised the most concerns and made the most fuss on this issue (and indeed, apart from Fourcade, all the athletes you name are from those two countries) are the countries that have the most to gain (either politically or sport-wise) may be coincidental, or it may not. YMMV. There are many issues with the running of the sport and plenty of reasons to critique the people in charge, however while I'm sure some of it is, I don't think all of the anti-Russia posturing is rooted in an altruistic commitment to cleaner sport.

Pointless post since it again stems from Koukalova not shaking Besseberg's hand; which you've automatically assigned to not suspeding or banning suspicious Russian athletes, or even all Russian athletes.

I don't quite understand how you've managed to include the petition there. The points of the petition had nothing to do with requirement for swifter action against Russian athletes (or as you've called it "baying for the Russians to be banned outright" - which is blatant lie).

Actually, Koko, it's not a pointless post, because it adds clarity to the previous one, pointing out that the way the actions of the teams are being reported - and I think it would be a bizarre argument to try to suggest that Fourcade, the US and Czech teams aren't the most vocal by far in this, and also the reason for including the petition was that these were the groups that walked out of the Antholz meeting - helps to create the feeling that there's a push for more action against Russia (especially Russophone sources, for obvious reasons) which, if inaccurate, does them a disservice - as I specifically stated in the post you regard as pointless. A Russian biathlon site ran an interview at Hochfilzen with a Czech trainer who talked of the team being afraid to accept gifts from fans anymore, "closing its windows and doors" (although I think this is metaphorical, not literal as it's been published) and of receiving abuse from Russian fans (taking care to specify that it's not the team) "probably because we are actively opposing doping" (here) - you can see how the statement, and the subsequent way in which it's been reported, creates a feeling of mutual antagonism, where context is not given and the interview comes across as quite hostile from the interviewer and guarded from the interviewee. I agree though, awarding Tyumen' the World Championships in 2021 was outright stupid.

I would point out, however, the names of the 31, the dates they were tested and McLaren report observations thereon actually are out there. My talking about the 12 juniors, and guesses at those still being investigated (posted a few weeks ago when Glazyrina's suspension was announced) after 22 of the 31 were cleared, is not idle speculation but all based on the information that has been provided.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 18:31

Kokoso wrote:What action? Not to give Tyumen World Championship at time when nobody should give Russia organizing of any such event. With that your question and basically all your post is answered sufficiently.

Not a single russian skier or biathlete was caught with doping in 2016 or 2017. Why did Koukalova go to Tyumen post season event in 2016?

Very Czech behaviour. Traditional one. And Besseberg words about Hitler's-like approach perfectly suit the situation. While ten's of millions of innocent russians were killed in WW2 "zlatý český ručičky" (Czech golden hands) were producing weapons and ammunition for that purpose and getting their salaries.
Rider
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20 Mar 2017 19:48

not sure the generalization about the modern czechs are fair. just as the generalizations about the russian dopers are fair...

i lived and worked in prague in the 90s. learned the language...many a time i went skiing with my czech friends among whom.... were the russian speakers. i can only vouch for my own experience - there was zero prejudice towards them among the czechs i befriended. not that there was no resentment among the older generation re. the 1968 or even earlier. old people have their own old opinions..

btw, it was casper not bessberg. and he was right. too bad being politically correct about anything re the jews had poisoned the european freedom of expression.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
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20 Mar 2017 19:55

Casper, right, my mistake.

I also lived and worked in Prague in late 90s, was also skiing in NM. Had enough of their bs about 1968 (when I simply did not exist yet).
Rider
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 22:42

Libertine Seguros wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:The problem is, it's being reported as if the whole problem - and the athletes' petition that was rejected that led to the US and CZE delegations and Fourcade walking out of the meeting at Antholz - is to do with the handling of the Russians in the wake of the McLaren report, and frankly given some of the concerns about the report and the fact that 2/3 the athletes named in it have since been cleared, it's difficult to see what exactly they are supposed to have done. A lot hinges, like I said, on whether they are able to take action not against the Russian athletes but the SBR, because that's where the problem lies. I think that while Besseberg may anger the Americans and the Czechs with a lack of action and hoping the investigations will sort out enough bad apples to keep people happy, there's not really much of a middle ground to be taken, and any swifter, heavier action against athletes would lead to some pretty tail-between-the-legs backing down once so many of them were cleared of wrongdoing.

If the concerns are more wide-reaching ones and the reportage reducing it down to the Russia issue is inaccurate, then it does them a disservice. The fact that the two countries who've raised the most concerns and made the most fuss on this issue (and indeed, apart from Fourcade, all the athletes you name are from those two countries) are the countries that have the most to gain (either politically or sport-wise) may be coincidental, or it may not. YMMV. There are many issues with the running of the sport and plenty of reasons to critique the people in charge, however while I'm sure some of it is, I don't think all of the anti-Russia posturing is rooted in an altruistic commitment to cleaner sport.

Pointless post since it again stems from Koukalova not shaking Besseberg's hand; which you've automatically assigned to not suspeding or banning suspicious Russian athletes, or even all Russian athletes.

I don't quite understand how you've managed to include the petition there. The points of the petition had nothing to do with requirement for swifter action against Russian athletes (or as you've called it "baying for the Russians to be banned outright" - which is blatant lie).

Actually, Koko, it's not a pointless post, because it adds clarity to the previous one, pointing out that the way the actions of the teams are being reported - and I think it would be a bizarre argument to try to suggest that Fourcade, the US and Czech teams aren't the most vocal by far in this, and also the reason for including the petition was that these were the groups that walked out of the Antholz meeting - helps to create the feeling that there's a push for more action against Russia (especially Russophone sources, for obvious reasons) which, if inaccurate, does them a disservice - as I specifically stated in the post you regard as pointless. A Russian biathlon site ran an interview at Hochfilzen with a Czech trainer who talked of the team being afraid to accept gifts from fans anymore, "closing its windows and doors" (although I think this is metaphorical, not literal as it's been published) and of receiving abuse from Russian fans (taking care to specify that it's not the team) "probably because we are actively opposing doping" (here) - you can see how the statement, and the subsequent way in which it's been reported, creates a feeling of mutual antagonism, where context is not given and the interview comes across as quite hostile from the interviewer and guarded from the interviewee. I agree though, awarding Tyumen' the World Championships in 2021 was outright stupid.

I would point out, however, the names of the 31, the dates they were tested and McLaren report observations thereon actually are out there. My talking about the 12 juniors, and guesses at those still being investigated (posted a few weeks ago when Glazyrina's suspension was announced) after 22 of the 31 were cleared, is not idle speculation but all based on the information that has been provided.


Why was that stupid? When was Tyumen awarded the 2021 world's?
BullsFan22
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20 Mar 2017 22:50

google says the vote was on the 4th of September 2016
User avatar roundabout
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Re:

20 Mar 2017 23:24

roundabout wrote:google says the vote was on the 4th of September 2016



And what's the issue?
BullsFan22
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