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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

08 Apr 2017 21:01

python wrote:if you are looking for a dude-like dudette in the norwegian team look no furthe than the post above by pazuzu :)

Bjoergen's neck is as thick as her head. Rather like American football players in the 70s and 80s unregulated steroid era. :confused:

Image

contrast that with US XC standout Jessica Diggins:

Image
Pazuzu
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Re: Re:

13 Apr 2017 07:50

Aragon wrote:
meat puppet wrote:Niskanen hiring vähäsöyrinki is ridiculous, but it is even more ridiculous that no journalist asks her about it...

Kerttu Niskanen has now commented on her decision to cooperate with Pekka Vähäsöyrinki:

http://www.is.fi/maastohiihto/art-2000005150164.html?ref=rss

Finnish is barely readable through Google Translator, so I'll provide here the highlights from the interview:

- "The discussion is totally ridiculous. If we keep coming to this subject time and time again, it is better not to do interviews at all. I am familiar with his history: what took place over twenty years ago should not influence anything. I am living now and so is Pekka and we are looking into the future."
- "There was discussion about making some changes throughout the season. I made the first move towards Pekka, he didn't contact me."
-"Through these years Pekka has asked about my exercises and about the races I participated. He is very sharp-eyed and systematical and still to wants learn new things."
- "Everyone who knows about modern cross country skiing understands that it is possible to triumph clean. If someone doesn't get it, there is nothing I can do about it."


This is pure vanilla from the reporter and pure cleans era PR talking points from the athlete, as it should be as per the script. But it is funny how overtly annoyed Niskanen gets anyhow (though this is more apparent in the Finnish original).
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Re: Re:

21 Apr 2017 21:04

I too found that discussion a little generic, it sounded like the elephant in the room just had to be discussed at some point. In the end, I do fully agree with the comments that 1990s was a different time period with different incentives and the discipline was different from the viewpoint of the decision making process.

Interestingly Immo Kuutsa - the head coach of the Finnish XC team between 1972 and 1985 - mentions in his 2016 biography that Vähäsöyrinki gave greenish light towards the direction of blood doping in 1988 after the Calgary fiasco:
Italy was the leading European country in many disciplines, and there were many supportive measures utilised, of which Immo had been tipped of by Carmelo Bosco, a researcher who had moved to Finland. Bosco was wondering in many occasions why similar measures hadn't been used in Finland as had been used in Italy. Bosco was the brother-in-law of Finnish skier Harri Kirvesniemi. After the 1988 Calgary winter olympics, the head coach Pekka Vähäsöyrinki told that he wouldn't participate in any major competition before the bloods had been "taken care of".

The story goes on that this didn't have to take place as the blood doping test was introduced and high altitude training was enough etc. etc. It is a well-known tradition that these semi-autobiographies edited with the help of sports journalists are notoriously whitewashing in their approach. While there are some interesting bits and pieces in the book and I am not taking the position that the book is totally honest in all instances.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

22 Apr 2017 09:56

If I've read the comments (the most recent ones and the ones pages back-some waaay back) and done the right search (albeit no in great detail) there is a strong connection between the Italians and Finns in xc since the 1970's?
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

22 Apr 2017 17:36

BullsFan22 wrote:If I've read the comments (the most recent ones and the ones pages back-some waaay back) and done the right search (albeit no in great detail) there is a strong connection between the Italians and Finns in xc since the 1970's?

As far as I know, the old threads must have the "latest" knowledge, at least I am not aware of any significant new information revealed on the subject for years if not for decades.

It is a well known fact that Francesco Conconi started to utilise his blood doping program in early 1980s and the Italian cross country team had two Finnish head coaches during that decade, Viljo Sadeharju (1980 or 1981 - 1984) and Jarmo Punkkinen (1984-1990).

Coach Alessandro Donati - the whistleblower of the Ferrara doping program - has claimed that Francesco Conconi told him that the method he used was the Finnish blood doping technique but that he had made a few improvements into it. Donati has claimed also that the Italians specifically hired a Finnish coach "to get access to the secrets of blood doping".

Sadeharju's theory is that the original source of Conconi's method was the Italian's research with blood diseases and the Ferrara blood doping program with runners started actually as early as 1979 if not slightly earlier, so at least it wasn't that coach who brought the method to Italy. Maybe it was Carmelo Bosco who tipped off Conconi about the method, at least he had many Finnish exercise physiologist colleagues. Conconi only knows for sure.

Italy wasn't actually the only country where Finnish exported their coaching know-how. Switzerland had also a Finnish athlete-turned-coach for a few years in early 1980s, who collaborated with skiers such Franz Renggli and Konrad Hallenbarter and also predicted correctly that Evi Kratzer would succeed even internationally (5k bronze, 1987 WC Oberstdorf).

This coach is actually possibly connected to blood doping even when I wouldn't think that he was hired for his knowledge on the subject. In 1983-1985 Finnish authorities investigated the fate of a handful of blood bags that were suspected having vanished for blood doping purposes during 1970s. It isn't established why, but the only commercial broadcasting company claimed in 1985 that the coach was one of the three cross-country skiers who transfused with the vanished blood bags in 1974 and 1975. Many parts of the official inquiry have been classified and it has been never been established where the information about him came from.

Google Translate has updated its Finnish-language algorithm, so the a Finnish television interview with Donati from 2000 should be almost readable, except that some Scandinavian letter of that transcript are Hebrew letters. Strange.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090810092711/http://yle.fi:80/mot/110900/liite1.htm
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26 Apr 2017 13:47

A slot in the Norwegian national team is kept open for Johaug. Also Lofshus informs that Johaug, despite the suspension, is still on the pay-roll. He claims that it's within the framework of the current WADA regulations.
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Re:

26 Apr 2017 19:42

Discgear wrote:A slot in the Norwegian national team is kept open for Johaug. Also Lofshus informs that Johaug, despite the suspension, is still on the pay-roll. He claims that it's within the framework of the current WADA regulations.


Spot on with your post - Athletes can still be paid during a suspension but are not allowed to train with the team.
yaco
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Re: Re:

27 Apr 2017 08:22

yaco wrote:
Discgear wrote:A slot in the Norwegian national team is kept open for Johaug. Also Lofshus informs that Johaug, despite the suspension, is still on the pay-roll. He claims that it's within the framework of the current WADA regulations.


Spot on with your post - Athletes can still be paid during a suspension but are not allowed to train with the team.

Curious how that's allowed.
Try anything like that in government or business.
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30 May 2017 20:27

Johaug makes her own appeal to cas and wants the verdict canceled. "She has done nothing wrong". This according to SVT sport.
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Re:

31 May 2017 11:56

Dr.Guess wrote:Johaug makes her own appeal to cas and wants the verdict canceled. "She has done nothing wrong". This according to SVT sport.

It seems stupid, she is only missing another half a season, why wave it around in peoples faces?
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06 Jun 2017 16:10

FIS is asking for a 16-20 month suspension http://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/johaug-tatt-i-doping/fis-vil-utestenge-johaug-fra-ol/a/24023025/which even at the lower end means the winter olympics are not possible. Johaug was apparently satisfied with her presentation earlier today.

(Edited to replace a link with one not behind a paywall.)
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

07 Jun 2017 20:25

Did anyone catch what Travis Tygart had to say about the FIS vs Johaug case?

https://www.nrk.no/sport/amerikansk-antidopingsjef-meget-kritisk-til-johaug-anken-1.13549454

Goodness me, what's going on with Tygart these days?? I thought he was one of the 'good guys' a few years ago. He is saying that FIS wanting to increase Johaug's suspension is either 'political or they have a personal vendetta against her.' I don't know if Travis remembers all those times that Armstrong and his team of lawyers used that very same language 'politically motivated' and this one in particular 'personal vendetta against Lance...."

Also saying that what Johaug took isn't performance enhancing. I guess they should take out those anabolic steroids off the WADA banned list and make them available to everyone, right? Why did that Italian cyclist and the US baseball player get banned for the same offense?
BullsFan22
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Re: Re:

09 Jun 2017 06:47

Pazuzu wrote:
python wrote:if you are looking for a dude-like dudette in the norwegian team look no furthe than the post above by pazuzu :)

Bjoergen's neck is as thick as her head. Rather like American football players in the 70s and 80s unregulated steroid era. :confused:

Image

contrast that with US XC standout Jessica Diggins:

Image

To be fair, you've choosed non-representative pics, at least that of Marit. There are many pics on internet where her neck looks much thinner. When one kinda retracts his head the way Marit does, everybody will look thick - necked, bar extremes. Marit has quite normal neck for woman.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

10 Jun 2017 11:16

BullsFan22 wrote:Goodness me, what's going on with Tygart these days?? I thought he was one of the 'good guys' a few years ago.


You see, Tygart is about anti-doping. Catching the bad guys. You know, Armstrong. Those who try to cheat and gain an unfair advantage over the competitors. And having rules that do exactly that, and not get some poor sloppy soul get caught up in a Kafka-process.

I fully understand that is a concept that's beyond you. You should take some interest in anti-doping.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

10 Jun 2017 12:05

Knutsen wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:Goodness me, what's going on with Tygart these days?? I thought he was one of the 'good guys' a few years ago.


You see, Tygart is about anti-doping. Catching the bad guys. You know, Armstrong. Those who try to cheat and gain an unfair advantage over the competitors. And having rules that do exactly that, and not get some poor sloppy soul get caught up in a Kafka-process.

I fully understand that is a concept that's beyond you. You should take some interest in anti-doping.



Don't know if serious.
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Jun 2017 07:39

BullsFan22 wrote:Did anyone catch what Travis Tygart had to say about the FIS vs Johaug case?

https://www.nrk.no/sport/amerikansk-antidopingsjef-meget-kritisk-til-johaug-anken-1.13549454

Goodness me, what's going on with Tygart these days?? I thought he was one of the 'good guys' a few years ago. He is saying that FIS wanting to increase Johaug's suspension is either 'political or they have a personal vendetta against her.' I don't know if Travis remembers all those times that Armstrong and his team of lawyers used that very same language 'politically motivated' and this one in particular 'personal vendetta against Lance...."

Also saying that what Johaug took isn't performance enhancing. I guess they should take out those anabolic steroids off the WADA banned list and make them available to everyone, right? Why did that Italian cyclist and the US baseball player get banned for the same offense?


You'll never guess who supports Tygart's view. One of 'em's pictured on this page, and the other one got busted for overuse of asthma meds. :rolleyes:
http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/bjorgen-og-sundby-reagerer-pa-fis-behandling-av-johaug--tror-de-er-redde-for-brak/67673904
Blaaswix
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Jun 2017 15:35

BullsFan22 wrote:
Knutsen wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:Goodness me, what's going on with Tygart these days?? I thought he was one of the 'good guys' a few years ago.


You see, Tygart is about anti-doping. Catching the bad guys. You know, Armstrong. Those who try to cheat and gain an unfair advantage over the competitors. And having rules that do exactly that, and not get some poor sloppy soul get caught up in a Kafka-process.

I fully understand that is a concept that's beyond you. You should take some interest in anti-doping.



Don't know if serious.


Looks serious to me. Tygart doesn't believe Johaug attempted, or got any benefit from the substance she took. Doping is about taking drugs that are prohibited to gain an advantage. Hence it requires, intent, and to some extent advantage for it to be doping.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Jun 2017 16:02

ToreBear wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
Knutsen wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:Goodness me, what's going on with Tygart these days?? I thought he was one of the 'good guys' a few years ago.


You see, Tygart is about anti-doping. Catching the bad guys. You know, Armstrong. Those who try to cheat and gain an unfair advantage over the competitors. And having rules that do exactly that, and not get some poor sloppy soul get caught up in a Kafka-process.

I fully understand that is a concept that's beyond you. You should take some interest in anti-doping.



Don't know if serious.


Looks serious to me. Tygart doesn't believe Johaug attempted, or got any benefit from the substance she took. Doping is about taking drugs that are prohibited to gain an advantage. Hence it requires, intent, and to some extent advantage for it to be doping.


The substance she took IS PROHIBITED. Just because she took the substance outside of competition, doesn't mean she didn't take it to gain something from it. If this was meant to go on her lips, how did it get into her system? And both she, the main doctor (Bendiksen), the coaches/team doctors at hand in Livigno really are idiots to let this happen. This is an ANABOLIC STEROID. A powerful enhancer. NFL and MLB players have used stuff like this for ages, clearly used for enhancing their performances. Either all the doctors, coaches and Johaug herself handled the events last September as complete idiots, or they knew what they were doing, she got caught, and they've tried to save face for the past 8 or 9 months. Pick one.
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Jun 2017 16:45

BullsFan22 wrote:
ToreBear wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
Knutsen wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:Goodness me, what's going on with Tygart these days?? I thought he was one of the 'good guys' a few years ago.


You see, Tygart is about anti-doping. Catching the bad guys. You know, Armstrong. Those who try to cheat and gain an unfair advantage over the competitors. And having rules that do exactly that, and not get some poor sloppy soul get caught up in a Kafka-process.

I fully understand that is a concept that's beyond you. You should take some interest in anti-doping.



Don't know if serious.


Looks serious to me. Tygart doesn't believe Johaug attempted, or got any benefit from the substance she took. Doping is about taking drugs that are prohibited to gain an advantage. Hence it requires, intent, and to some extent advantage for it to be doping.


The substance she took IS PROHIBITED. Just because she took the substance outside of competition, doesn't mean she didn't take it to gain something from it. If this was meant to go on her lips, how did it get into her system? And both she, the main doctor (Bendiksen), the coaches/team doctors at hand in Livigno really are idiots to let this happen. This is an ANABOLIC STEROID. A powerful enhancer. NFL and MLB players have used stuff like this for ages, clearly used for enhancing their performances. Either all the doctors, coaches and Johaug herself handled the events last September as complete idiots, or they knew what they were doing, she got caught, and they've tried to save face for the past 8 or 9 months. Pick one.


Correct it is prohibited, outside or inside competition doesn't matter. The only difference if it was inside competition her results would be annulled. Some medications absorb through the skin. Have you ever heard of nicotine patches? They are absorbed through the skin.

Bendiksen(the only doctor involved) was negligent in not actually checking if there was a prohibited substance in the cream. Instead he was too focused on finding the antibacterial substance he was looking for. Additionally he failed to rethink or recheck if the cream was within the rules when she asked if they were allowed upon receiving the cream. Coaches had nothing to do with this since this was a medical matter.

An anabolic steroid is a powerful performance enhancer. But it still needs a big enough dosage to have any affect. Her biopassport showed no difference in her steroid profile, and the story was corroborated by a former police inspector working for Anti Doping Norway who went to the area to investigate.

The idiot mistake was by the Doctor who didn't do his job, and the medical apparatus of the national team which didn't have any routines to prevent one human error to have such an effect. It's all in the Antidoping judgement,
which I suspect Tygart has read: https://www.idrettsforbundet.no/tema/juss/informasjon-om-therese-johaug-saken/
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Jun 2017 17:07

Blaaswix wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:Did anyone catch what Travis Tygart had to say about the FIS vs Johaug case?

https://www.nrk.no/sport/amerikansk-antidopingsjef-meget-kritisk-til-johaug-anken-1.13549454

Goodness me, what's going on with Tygart these days?? I thought he was one of the 'good guys' a few years ago. He is saying that FIS wanting to increase Johaug's suspension is either 'political or they have a personal vendetta against her.' I don't know if Travis remembers all those times that Armstrong and his team of lawyers used that very same language 'politically motivated' and this one in particular 'personal vendetta against Lance...."

Also saying that what Johaug took isn't performance enhancing. I guess they should take out those anabolic steroids off the WADA banned list and make them available to everyone, right? Why did that Italian cyclist and the US baseball player get banned for the same offense?


You'll never guess who supports Tygart's view. One of 'em's pictured on this page, and the other one got busted for overuse of asthma meds. :rolleyes:
http://www.dagbladet.no/sport/bjorgen-og-sundby-reagerer-pa-fis-behandling-av-johaug--tror-de-er-redde-for-brak/67673904


That's not a surprise, to be honest.
BullsFan22
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