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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

09 Mar 2018 13:30

I have very little input on the TUE-issue nor would I want to throw anyone under the bus if one athlete had one, but Ilta-sanomat, one the two large evening newspapers in Finland, reported a few hours ago that Krista Pärmäkoski had TUE to use some unspecified "banned" product at the 2018 Pyeongchang Olympics where she won three individual medals (1 silver + 2 bronze).

https://www.is.fi/muutlajit/art-2000005597493.html

She is in great gorm form and it was only last Sunday when she beated Marit Björgen first time in her life at the Lahti Ski Festival by a huge margin at the 10 km classical, an event I had to the privilege to see first hand.
User avatar Aragon
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09 Mar 2018 20:07

I don't see the TUEs as an issue. I think the Doctors granting or rejecting TUEs do their job better than the media looking for headlines.

I trust the system.

As for the race, It wasn't a surprise for me. IIRC it was around -10C. That means Norwegian Classic skiis go slow and Finnish skiis go fast. On the 30k at the olympics(as opposed to the mens 50k were it was around -10) the temperature was around 0. That means Norway has fast classic skis and Finns have slower skiis. That is how it has looked to me recently.

Additionally, IIRC the course in Lahti is not one were Bjørgen is at her best. It's more of a Johaug course.

This weekend in Holmenkollen is 30k and 50k skate. The Norwegians have had superb skate skiis in -10. Perhaps those skiis are also good when it gets closer to 0.
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Re:

09 Mar 2018 22:04

ToreBear wrote:I don't see the TUEs as an issue. I think the Doctors granting or rejecting TUEs do their job better than the media looking for headlines.

I trust the system.

As for the race, It wasn't a surprise for me. IIRC it was around -10C. That means Norwegian Classic skiis go slow and Finnish skiis go fast. On the 30k at the olympics(as opposed to the mens 50k were it was around -10) the temperature was around 0. That means Norway has fast classic skis and Finns have slower skiis. That is how it has looked to me recently.

Additionally, IIRC the course in Lahti is not one were Bjørgen is at her best. It's more of a Johaug course.

This weekend in Holmenkollen is 30k and 50k skate. The Norwegians have had superb skate skiis in -10. Perhaps those skiis are also good when it gets closer to 0.



You trust 'legal' doping?
BullsFan22
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Re: Re:

09 Mar 2018 23:04

BullsFan22 wrote:
ToreBear wrote:I don't see the TUEs as an issue. I think the Doctors granting or rejecting TUEs do their job better than the media looking for headlines.

I trust the system.

As for the race, It wasn't a surprise for me. IIRC it was around -10C. That means Norwegian Classic skiis go slow and Finnish skiis go fast. On the 30k at the olympics(as opposed to the mens 50k were it was around -10) the temperature was around 0. That means Norway has fast classic skis and Finns have slower skiis. That is how it has looked to me recently.

Additionally, IIRC the course in Lahti is not one were Bjørgen is at her best. It's more of a Johaug course.

This weekend in Holmenkollen is 30k and 50k skate. The Norwegians have had superb skate skiis in -10. Perhaps those skiis are also good when it gets closer to 0.



You trust 'legal' doping?


There is no such thing as legal or "legal" doping. Either it is legal and not doping or it is not legal and doping. You don't get semi/grey area TUEs.

The notion that it's easy to get doping through TUEs is ridiculous.
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Re: Re:

09 Mar 2018 23:47

ToreBear wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
ToreBear wrote:I don't see the TUEs as an issue. I think the Doctors granting or rejecting TUEs do their job better than the media looking for headlines.

I trust the system.

As for the race, It wasn't a surprise for me. IIRC it was around -10C. That means Norwegian Classic skiis go slow and Finnish skiis go fast. On the 30k at the olympics(as opposed to the mens 50k were it was around -10) the temperature was around 0. That means Norway has fast classic skis and Finns have slower skiis. That is how it has looked to me recently.

Additionally, IIRC the course in Lahti is not one were Bjørgen is at her best. It's more of a Johaug course.

This weekend in Holmenkollen is 30k and 50k skate. The Norwegians have had superb skate skiis in -10. Perhaps those skiis are also good when it gets closer to 0.



You trust 'legal' doping?


There is no such thing as legal or "legal" doping. Either it is legal and not doping or it is not legal and doping. You don't get semi/grey area TUEs.

The notion that it's easy to get doping through TUEs is ridiculous.



If it had no bearing on anything hardly anyone would be using them, or in many cases these days, abusing them. See Team Sky. End of.
BullsFan22
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Re: Re:

10 Mar 2018 06:06

ToreBear wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
ToreBear wrote:I don't see the TUEs as an issue. I think the Doctors granting or rejecting TUEs do their job better than the media looking for headlines.

I trust the system.

As for the race, It wasn't a surprise for me. IIRC it was around -10C. That means Norwegian Classic skiis go slow and Finnish skiis go fast. On the 30k at the olympics(as opposed to the mens 50k were it was around -10) the temperature was around 0. That means Norway has fast classic skis and Finns have slower skiis. That is how it has looked to me recently.

Additionally, IIRC the course in Lahti is not one were Bjørgen is at her best. It's more of a Johaug course.

This weekend in Holmenkollen is 30k and 50k skate. The Norwegians have had superb skate skiis in -10. Perhaps those skiis are also good when it gets closer to 0.



You trust 'legal' doping?


There is no such thing as legal or "legal" doping. Either it is legal and not doping or it is not legal and doping. You don't get semi/grey area TUEs.

The notion that it's easy to get doping through TUEs is ridiculous.

Laugh all you want. But getting TUEs for stuff lile corticoids is the oldest trick of the book. Among others Rasmussen has given fairly detailed accounts of it. And he should know.

First fake a joint or ligament injury or chest infection with the doc. Then

“You can have 50mg of triamcinolone injected into your knee joint, and that will release very slowly for the next four to five weeks. That gives you a free pass to use it intramuscularly for the next four to five weeks afterwards in much lower doses, which is what you’d usually use. In terms of its performance-enhancing effects, it’s a wonder drug.”

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/04/interview-michael-rasmussen-talks-tues-marginal-gains-outer-edge-potential/

Either way, in pärmäkoski's case we dont know what the TUE was for. Maybe for Sundby/froomesque levels of salbutamol, as alleged in a not very impressive follow up "nothing-to-see-here" piece in Ilta-Sanomat; or maybe for something else. She was reported ill before the games.

Pärmäkoski has had issues with high hemoglobin in 2011 and then a special permit, ofc.
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10 Mar 2018 12:29

How is corticosteroids a performance enhancing drug? I just can’t find any solid data on it. How we classically view fx prednisone, it’s about the last thing you’d ever want to take for performance, muscle wasting through gluconeogenesis, weight gain from increased central fat deposition and fluid retention, thinning of connective tissue, tendons blood vessels and skin, insulin resistance/hyperglycemia, hypertension etc etc
Does anyone have any studies or is this based more on hearsay?
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
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10 Mar 2018 12:31

I have only loosely followed the sky stuff. But IMHO it's the TUE committee who has erred if he was given something he shouldn't have. Same with Rasmussen. It's likely a difficult balance between what should be treated and whether it is more to enhance performance. But that's for the committee to figure out who are the medical experts. Wada has full oversight of this process.
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10 Mar 2018 12:38

I get the whole “if an athlete needs corticosteroids, he shouldn’t compete due to health” -argument, but in this forum, glucocorticoids are treated on par with epo and anabolic steroids in the “hierarchy of ped’s”, and I can’t really figure out why, except that it might allow you to train/compete through injury.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
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10 Mar 2018 13:21

Along with loads of anecdotal testimonies from pros, and the history of absuing corticoids in sports, this study about the effects of prednisolone was pretty easy to find (might be behind a wall). Subjects were recreational athletes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17805102/

CONCLUSION: From these data, short-term Pred intake did seem to significantly improve performance during submaximal exercise, with concomitant alterations in hormonal and metabolic responses. Further studies will be necessary to elucidate the mechanisms of these hormonal and metabolic changes, and to determine whether the changes may be associated with the marked performance improvement obtained.

So i think it is not only about hearsay and though the general conclusion may well be challenge-able, it seems to corroborate what the pros state.

The lead author has also published another study concluding that immediate intake has no immediate benefit to performance.
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10 Mar 2018 15:19

I found that one, but it’s only 10 people and I would like to read the whole. Of course, it’s possible to immagine increased glucose availability would yield significant performance gains in athletes, but it seems almost all research is done on regular people for disease modifying purposes and thus very different effects and side effects would be expected.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Mar 2018 12:06

How much can a doper dope?
BullsFan22
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

11 Mar 2018 12:10

BullsFan22 wrote:How much can a doper dope?

To answer your question I'm introducing a new measurement unit for PEDs called the bjørgen.

One bjørgen equates to ten sh*tloads of dope.
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Re:

11 Mar 2018 13:28

Oude Geuze wrote:I found that one, but it’s only 10 people and I would like to read the whole. Of course, it’s possible to immagine increased glucose availability would yield significant performance gains in athletes, but it seems almost all research is done on regular people for disease modifying purposes and thus very different effects and side effects would be expected.


This review discusses the literature that existed in 2010 and elucidates the relevant physiological mechanism in an explicit doping context. In doing so some of the "counter intuitive" points you raised in a couple posts are addressed. See for yourself:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/47500273_Evidence_on_Ergogenic_Action_of_Glucocorticoids_as_a_Doping_Agent_Risk

The author concludes glucocorticoids are potent doping agents and should remain banned.

More generally, it is known that athletes use corticoids. There are testimonies suggesting this is not just for remedying injuries. What would be the rationale for this use if the hypothesis is that no ergogenic benefits are available from use - Placebo, tradition, hypochondria, what?
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11 Mar 2018 23:15

Nice, thank you.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
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12 Mar 2018 22:52

My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.
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Re:

13 Mar 2018 00:37

lartiste wrote:My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.
That'd be my suspicion. Ever since Bjoergen started using asthma meds right before the 2010 Olympics she's been superhuman. It's hard to believe asthma medication alone would make that much of a difference. Also, athletes are supposed to decline by the time they're in the late 30s. But not Bjoergen, she's killing it... just like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemons did when they were on the wrong side of 35.
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Re:

13 Mar 2018 01:18

lartiste wrote:My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

Don't tell us. Report your findings to WADA. This would be new information to them. Your doctor has clearly uncovered something unknown to WADA. I have no reason to doubt your doctor or to doubt that you asked him anything. This is explosive new testimony, so can you promise that you will communicate this information to the authorities.
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Re: Re:

13 Mar 2018 03:35

Parker wrote:
lartiste wrote:My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

Don't tell us. Report your findings to WADA. This would be new information to them. Your doctor has clearly uncovered something unknown to WADA. I have no reason to doubt your doctor or to doubt that you asked him anything. This is explosive new testimony, so can you promise that you will communicate this information to the authorities.


Yes, there's no evidence I'm aware of that salbutamol can act as a masking agent for steroids. Because of its structure, it interacts with a different transporter class than most steroids do.
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Re:

13 Mar 2018 04:18

lartiste wrote:My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

Of course your doctor said that
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