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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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13 Mar 2018 10:49

the asthma inhalers include NOT only those with salbutamol, but also the corticosteroid inhalers...pulmicort being the one brand mentioned often...i have no idea what lartiste's doc had in mind and whether salbutamol indeed was the subject, but a corticosteroid effect on testosterone was studied. it depressed the testo levels...the anaboilic steroids ARE derivatives of testo, but i am not aware of a research (not that it does not exist) of using ICS for masking AA steroids...

that said, indeed the salbutamol use has not been suspected as a masking agent for sterroids...
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User avatar python
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13 Mar 2018 12:17

I do honestly hope that Bjoergen is completely clean as it would be a massive blow to XC-skiing if the opposite was to be true. It would be more devastating than Armstrong ever was to road cycling.

Marit had amazing skiis last weekend at Holmenkollen which actually shows how impossible it is to analyze XC performances. Technique, waxing, skis and the daily form of the athlete make for a very complex equation that may generate extraordinary results without anything suspicious... or at least I hope so.
Barkintheeye
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Re: Re:

13 Mar 2018 12:58

Merckx index wrote:
Parker wrote:
lartiste wrote:My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

Don't tell us. Report your findings to WADA. This would be new information to them. Your doctor has clearly uncovered something unknown to WADA. I have no reason to doubt your doctor or to doubt that you asked him anything. This is explosive new testimony, so can you promise that you will communicate this information to the authorities.


Yes, there's no evidence I'm aware of that salbutamol can act as a masking agent for steroids. Because of its structure, it interacts with a different transporter class than most steroids do.

? Marit Bjoergen is not even using salbutamol, she uses (or at least used formerly) Symbicort.
Kokoso
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Re:

13 Mar 2018 13:01

python wrote:the asthma inhalers include NOT only those with salbutamol, but also the corticosteroid inhalers...pulmicort being the one brand mentioned often...i have no idea what lartiste's doc had in mind and whether salbutamol indeed was the subject, but a corticosteroid effect on testosterone was studied. it depressed the testo levels...the anaboilic steroids ARE derivatives of testo, but i am not aware of a research (not that it does not exist) of using ICS for masking AA steroids...

that said, indeed the salbutamol use has not been suspected as a masking agent for sterroids...

Well surely lartiste's doctor did not have in mind inhalers containing corticosteroids, because such inhalers would not hide (cortico)steroids for sure :razz:
Kokoso
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Re:

13 Mar 2018 13:07

Barkintheeye wrote:Technique, waxing, skis and the daily form of the athlete make for a very complex equation that may generate extraordinary results without anything suspicious... or at least I hope so.
And this VERY COMPLEX equation clicks perfectly for Marit Bjoergen for years now, especially in big events = if what's you say is right she would have to be EXTREMELY lucky. Every day she has had perfect daily form and this very complex equation played for her.

We know she is notentirely clean, she's using corticoids and beta-2-agonists and those are performance enhancing drugs.
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Re:

13 Mar 2018 22:57

python wrote:the asthma inhalers include NOT only those with salbutamol, but also the corticosteroid inhalers...pulmicort being the one brand mentioned often...i have no idea what lartiste's doc had in mind and whether salbutamol indeed was the subject, but a corticosteroid effect on testosterone was studied. it depressed the testo levels...the anaboilic steroids ARE derivatives of testo, but i am not aware of a research (not that it does not exist) of using ICS for masking AA steroids...

that said, indeed the salbutamol use has not been suspected as a masking agent for sterroids...


Sorry not to answer earlier, but the reason to visit doc was to do something with huge sore I have from cycling, I got three different creams, one of which was triamcinolone. So my answer was, that I can finally use injection triamcinolone without taking risk to be positive and her answer was, that much better are inhalers which can work as masking agents for AS. Unsure whether she had in mind salbutamol inhalers or other inhalers. I am not sure whether asthma inhalers can influence outcome of urine sample testing, but in my opinion it is possible.
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13 Mar 2018 23:00

And I commented Marit since she is not women, if someone assumes, that she is "clean" then probably even LA was clean :).
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

17 Mar 2018 12:43

Doped Koukalova will not return. Good news.
Rider
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17 Mar 2018 13:13

So Krista Pärmäkoski has a TUE for doping classed substances that she "doesn't want to talk about b/c it's personal".

All athletes that have a TUE should have a TUE-label and a Medicine specification on what illegal drugs they have been allowed to take. It should be apparent to all how far the athletes and the national teams have taken this.
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Re:

17 Mar 2018 14:57

Barkintheeye wrote:All athletes that have a TUE should have a TUE-label and a Medicine specification on what illegal drugs they have been allowed to take.

Absolutely.
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23 Mar 2018 13:45

Bolder
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12 Apr 2018 09:55

Libertine Seguros: Good news for you, Koukalova is done and it is clear that she will not compete any more. Nowdays she publish every day article in tabloids in order to promote her new book. She spits at everyone and majority of Czech starts to think, that she is totally crazy. She even attacked teammates, coaches, no way back ... . PS: And Vitkova hates her because she throw an apple on her when they were 5. :D
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12 Apr 2018 10:40

So IBU is under investigation for corruption and covering up positive tests by the austrian police. Raids in Austria (IBU HQ), Germany and Norway (Besseberg's home), where computers, phones and records have been confiscated.
MrRoboto
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Re:

12 Apr 2018 11:46

MrRoboto wrote:So IBU is under investigation for corruption and covering up positive tests by the austrian police. Raids in Austria (IBU HQ), Germany and Norway (Besseberg's home), where computers, phones and records have been confiscated.


Austrian online portal is posting already details (don't know if legit):

https://www.laola1.at/de/red/wintersport/biathlon/news/biathlon-chaos--ibu-boss-soll-doping-vertuscht-haben/

Of 22 Russians that started in the World Cup the last season, 17 had a positive test covered up by the IBU. Crazy... :surprised:
ppanther92
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12 Apr 2018 11:48

And in total, 65 positive tests were covered up since 2011. Well, IBU with a strong claim in competing for most corrupt organisation if true.
ppanther92
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

12 Apr 2018 12:08

And what a great season the Russians had last season! No podiums from any women, and only Shipulin and Tsvetkov with wins and podiums. Must be some really crappy doping they are using.

But we know for sure that people like Fourcade and Dahlmeier are clean. In fact everyone else is clean as well. It's only the Russians that dope. Their results from last season prove it.
BullsFan22
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12 Apr 2018 17:42

IBU president Besseberg had trouble understanding how they could cover up tests when all they get from the lab is copies of the results from the lab. The lab directly posts the results on Adams.

I hope the Austrians get to the bottom of this quickly. Cause this is an interesting mystery. Right now I'm thinking this is a nothing burger.
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12 Apr 2018 17:47

Let's be careful though, some of the wording you have there is ambiguous which leads to confusion. The suggestion is not that 17 of 22 Russian athletes had a positive test covered up in 2017-18, but that 17 of the 22 athletes who represented Russia at the World Cup in 2017-18 had previously had either biopassport anomalies, a positive test, or both, at some point previously in their career.

The scope of this particular investigation looks to be a five year period stretching from Ruhpolding 2012 to Hochfilzen 2017, which would bring into play those who were involved in the Sochi deception, and also those who were around during the period between Sochi taking place and Sochi becoming public, during which time it seems it is likely that things continued.

The following represented Russia at the 2017-18 Biathlon World Cup:

Anton Babikov
Matvey Eliseev
Evgeny Garanichev
Aleksandr Loginov
Igor Malinovskii
Dmitry Malyshko
Petr Pashchenko
Anton Shipulin
Yuri Shopin
Maxim Tsvetkov
Alexey Volkov

Tatiana Akimova
Uliana Kaisheva
Svetlana Mironova
Olga Podchufarova
Kristina Reztsova
Viktoria Slivko
Irina Starykh
Irina Uslugina
Daria Virolaynen
Ekaterina Yurlova-Percht

That totals 21, plus Alexey Slepov was selected for Tyumen' but did not race.

Figuring out who hasn't been involved then becomes difficult. There's four who were able to compete at the Olympics, but then that suggests a number of cases among those who have precious little international experience at the time period that the investigation covers. And if the investigation is talking about the World Cup level, then running up to and including Hochfilzen's World Championships last season would seem to exonerate Malinovskii, Mironova and Reztsova, none of whom had debuted at the World Cup until after those championships (Malinovskii and Reztsova also only did the one event at the end of the season this year with the bonus entries from the IBU Cup).

Otherwise from a Russian perspective it's more or less as-you-were; especially among the men for whom the team has remained fairly static for a long time now, with the same 7 or 8 athletes covering more or less the whole season (Slepov, Malinovskii and Pashchenko only went to Tyumen' from the IBU cup entries, Shopin did one World Cup race at Oberhof to fulfil the obligations of the Izhevsk Rifle), and all but Babikov and Eliseev have been the core of the team since before Sochi anyway. Among the women, there's been a bit more flux, admittedly, but then their results have been worse.

The issue is now on the IBU's side of course. I would actually argue that the IBU is not making a particularly strong claim in competing for most corrupt organisation. It's certainly jumping up the league table, but this only really puts it at the level of the UCI even if true, for the Armstrong collusion, and still a way behind FIFA. But it's really not a good look and the fact Besseberg has clung to power since the beginning makes him almost synonymous with that governing body which will put more smoke under the fire.

It does make the calls against Besseberg by the likes of Koukalová make more sense, and although I am perfectly glad to see the back of her, at the same time while some of her revelations like the nonsense story about Vitková are pretty ridiculous, her admitting to having had issues with anorexia does put some other pieces of the jigsaw into place. It would make sense if that was the 'true' reason for her absence that she would not necessarily want to be public about it until she was ready; at the same time I would say that, like when Koko and I had that blazing row about Tiril Eckhoff's build a few years ago, it would seem that Gabi is somebody who is not naturally rail thin, and compared to the likes of Gössner/Neureuther and Mäkäräinen among the fastest skiers this was clear, and perhaps the pressure of dieting down to keep in the competitive shape to keep her ski speed up takes its toll and either exacerbates/accentuates pre-existing problems or creates new ones. While I won't miss her on the trails, at the same time eating disorders are no laughing matter and I hope she has been able to overcome that now, and if not I hope she is getting the help she needs to do so.

Edit:
Oh, and of course there's Lapshin and Frolina as well who've represented Russia in the timeframe of the investigation (I think, Frolina may have been ousted from the team by 2012), who increasingly look like the smart ones. Avvakumova too, but she didn't get to the highest level with Russia before the switch.

Edit 2:
Scratch that last bit, Avvakumova's fallen out with the Korean team brass and will return to representing Russia.
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12 Apr 2018 21:10

So sad, this slippery slope. You start out perfectly innocently, just covering up your German and Norwegian countrymen's positives like a good patriot should, and before you know it, you are taking cash from the Russians and leaving a money trail...
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

13 Apr 2018 16:26

BullsFan22 wrote:And what a great season the Russians had last season! No podiums from any women, and only Shipulin and Tsvetkov with wins and podiums. Must be some really crappy doping they are using.

But we know for sure that people like Fourcade and Dahlmeier are clean. In fact everyone else is clean as well. It's only the Russians that dope. Their results from last season prove it.

In defense of Russians you are again jumping to prejudiced conlusions. :rolleyes:
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