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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Doping in XC skiing

24 Dec 2017 00:18

My email to the British Europort commentators.

Dear Patrick, Mike and David,

As a long-time follower of your biathlon and XC broadcasts, I feel I cannot remain silent anymore on the matter.

Every time a Russian athlete (most of them until now to be presumed clean), some strong insinuations and disdain are shared.
When it's about Norwegians, there seems to be another standard.

Let's not run around bush. Sundby makes a habit of over-dosing asthma medicines for which he never got a medical waiver. He gets it administered on the much-lauded second floor of the wax trailer. Nebulized even, which is the non-standard for of administration. 1600ug gram of Salbutal are allowed, but 200ug already tends to sufffice for most sufferers, like myself. I can't walk to the supermarket almost without needing a hit. The same 200ug hit suffices for all-out cold start running. Despite dilution with lots of water, Sundy managed to be way above 1600ug. This is not an accident. This is the result of using, daily, a many times over anabolic dose of what actual patients need only a tiny bit of. Dosage is of course measured very conservatively.
Sundby lost a few results, but not a single race. Not a word from the commentator team over the magnitude of his doping, the obvious anabolic benefit he got, from a state-run "I can't believe it's not doping" program. Talking about secret rooms to taint samples...Norway has a secret room for taking illegal dosages of stimulants with so happen to be allowed up to a very high dosage for asthma sufferers, without paperwork.

Johaug, the blatant lies, backpedaling and obvious disregard of protocol, the arrogance with which she and the team handled her case, seems to get a total thumbs up pass from the British commentating team also. As if her dosage is possible with a lip balm. As if the required criminal levels of disregard exist for both a team doctor and atlete to miss the bolded "DOPING" sign on the least conspicuous medicine container they were able to come up with. Does it need to be spelled out to you? Norwegians take any steroid which theoretically is on the market as a balm or something, and because of lax testing (Therese is not exactly used to being tested off-season, she's above all suspicion, of course...), they slipped up, and didn't have the right container on hand, didn't fiile paperwork for it, and had to act stupid. Does this stupidity exist, do you believe that in your hearts? From such a dominant skiing nation?

Do you honestly believe that the huge 2nd world skiing country that is Russia needs to dope its athletes to the gills just to finish close to the ultra-cclean Norwegians? With all your sports knowledge, you are then looking away from the VAST effect that doping has. It is so huge, that it overcomes basically all talent and training deficiency, certainly at World Cup level. If Russians were the only doping country, and doping hard, they'd be doing to the field what the Norwegian women do in theirs. It's simple science and logic, rather than western politically correct retoric.

Have you forgotten Lance Armstrong, deemed cleaner than clean, casually beating all the EPO topped up Italian and Spanish superclimbers, having been a classics specialist until deathbed? What have commentators learned from that?
You have a sport to comment on, but bashing Russians just because it's the popular thing to do, it doesn't suit you. It's an insult to viewers who have read up a bitt on the matter, and it doesn'tt help the sport keep the likes of Norway to the same standards.

As a long time fan of the three of you, I am deeply disappointed by the tone and content of your words on the matter.
And this is coming from a hobby skier/racer who is a Norway fan. Used to idolize little Therese. Is actively learning the language preparing for getting a fflat or cabin there. Truth just needs to be told, and I feel you've been doing truth a disjustice. You do know bettter, and your audience deserves better.

Regards,

Jan Gerrit Klok
The Netherlands
Cloxxki
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

24 Dec 2017 10:16

Cloxxki wrote:My email to the British Europort commentators.

Dear Patrick, Mike and David,

As a long-time follower of your biathlon and XC broadcasts, I feel I cannot remain silent anymore on the matter.

Every time a Russian athlete (most of them until now to be presumed clean), some strong insinuations and disdain are shared.
When it's about Norwegians, there seems to be another standard.

Let's not run around bush. Sundby makes a habit of over-dosing asthma medicines for which he never got a medical waiver. He gets it administered on the much-lauded second floor of the wax trailer. Nebulized even, which is the non-standard for of administration. 1600ug gram of Salbutal are allowed, but 200ug already tends to sufffice for most sufferers, like myself. I can't walk to the supermarket almost without needing a hit. The same 200ug hit suffices for all-out cold start running. Despite dilution with lots of water, Sundy managed to be way above 1600ug. This is not an accident. This is the result of using, daily, a many times over anabolic dose of what actual patients need only a tiny bit of. Dosage is of course measured very conservatively.
Sundby lost a few results, but not a single race. Not a word from the commentator team over the magnitude of his doping, the obvious anabolic benefit he got, from a state-run "I can't believe it's not doping" program. Talking about secret rooms to taint samples...Norway has a secret room for taking illegal dosages of stimulants with so happen to be allowed up to a very high dosage for asthma sufferers, without paperwork.

Johaug, the blatant lies, backpedaling and obvious disregard of protocol, the arrogance with which she and the team handled her case, seems to get a total thumbs up pass from the British commentating team also. As if her dosage is possible with a lip balm. As if the required criminal levels of disregard exist for both a team doctor and atlete to miss the bolded "DOPING" sign on the least conspicuous medicine container they were able to come up with. Does it need to be spelled out to you? Norwegians take any steroid which theoretically is on the market as a balm or something, and because of lax testing (Therese is not exactly used to being tested off-season, she's above all suspicion, of course...), they slipped up, and didn't have the right container on hand, didn't fiile paperwork for it, and had to act stupid. Does this stupidity exist, do you believe that in your hearts? From such a dominant skiing nation?

Do you honestly believe that the huge 2nd world skiing country that is Russia needs to dope its athletes to the gills just to finish close to the ultra-cclean Norwegians? With all your sports knowledge, you are then looking away from the VAST effect that doping has. It is so huge, that it overcomes basically all talent and training deficiency, certainly at World Cup level. If Russians were the only doping country, and doping hard, they'd be doing to the field what the Norwegian women do in theirs. It's simple science and logic, rather than western politically correct retoric.

Have you forgotten Lance Armstrong, deemed cleaner than clean, casually beating all the EPO topped up Italian and Spanish superclimbers, having been a classics specialist until deathbed? What have commentators learned from that?
You have a sport to comment on, but bashing Russians just because it's the popular thing to do, it doesn't suit you. It's an insult to viewers who have read up a bitt on the matter, and it doesn'tt help the sport keep the likes of Norway to the same standards.

As a long time fan of the three of you, I am deeply disappointed by the tone and content of your words on the matter.
And this is coming from a hobby skier/racer who is a Norway fan. Used to idolize little Therese. Is actively learning the language preparing for getting a fflat or cabin there. Truth just needs to be told, and I feel you've been doing truth a disjustice. You do know bettter, and your audience deserves better.

Regards,

Jan Gerrit Klok
The Netherlands


Cloxxi, a very well-articulated post, that summons the essence of the two last year’s discussions in the thread.
Merry Christmas
Discgear
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

24 Dec 2017 14:38

@Discgear
Cheers mate. I hope others will also hold their commentators to a high standard on this topic. The sport is going no-where if we're just blaming Russians who haven't been caught outright for doping more than Norwegians who were. And other instances and levels is misinformation by effectively monopolistic broadcasters.
Cloxxki
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

24 Dec 2017 16:01

Cloxxki wrote:@Discgear
Cheers mate. I hope others will also hold their commentators to a high standard on this topic. The sport is going no-where if we're just blaming Russians who haven't been caught outright for doping more than Norwegians who were. And other instances and levels is misinformation by effectively monopolistic broadcasters.



Exactly. I think you should have taken a bit further though. In your message to the Eurosport crew, you should have gone deeper...as in telling them of the med use on skiers who don't have asthma and the fact that since 1992, almost 70% of Norwegian medalists at the Olympics in XC were on asthma meds. Sticking to asthma meds, the Fasterskier article that talked about med use at world juniors in 2016 Romania would have been a cherry on the top. I sometimes watch British Eurosport if I miss the races live, and they always applaud Sundby. The only one that's a bit hesitant is Dixon, but he is generally the more fair commentator and I am surprised that he is actually sympathetic towards the Russians, he always seems that way. He treats all the skiers the same. Winterton on the other hand, whether it's doping or simply technique/tactics...general skiing info...he bends over backwards for the Norwegians. They don't need to come on TV and say 'hey people, wow, look at all these outrageous performances, Skier A, E, G, I, P, R, and Z are definitely dopers because because this and that...' but like you said, they need to be consistent and not give those already convicted a pass.

I don't need to go into detail into proven or not, because we are going to go around the chairs, playing musical chairs, but nobody loses their spot...
BullsFan22
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Re: Re:

24 Dec 2017 16:07

Kokoso wrote:
roundabout wrote:I gather that you have read all 1000+ plus documents here then?

https://www.ipevidencedisclosurepackage.net/

Have you read it all?


Not sure why you are addressing this question to me and what the point of it is.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

24 Dec 2017 23:19

@BullsFan22
I may have mis-read, but Dixon seems to only portray the Russians as dopers, and was happy insinuate against Ustiugov, for being Russian. So far, I the remarks on Sundby and Johaug seemed to define the cases as "unfortunate" and "complicated". For Russians is goes to "disgraced" and "state operated" or such words.

I'd love for you guys to help write a better letter/mafinest to send to XC&Biathlon commentators, journalists, etc. From the sports fans i The Clinic to those whose job supposedly is to report independently with journalistic integrity.
Cloxxki
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Re: Re:

25 Dec 2017 09:08

roundabout wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
roundabout wrote:I gather that you have read all 1000+ plus documents here then?

https://www.ipevidencedisclosurepackage.net/

Have you read it all?


Not sure why you are addressing this question to me and what the point of it is.

I was just curious, since you have posted it.
Kokoso
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

25 Dec 2017 09:26

Cloxxki wrote:My email to the British Europort commentators.

Dear Patrick, Mike and David,

As a long-time follower of your biathlon and XC broadcasts, I feel I cannot remain silent anymore on the matter.

Every time a Russian athlete (most of them until now to be presumed clean), some strong insinuations and disdain are shared.
When it's about Norwegians, there seems to be another standard.

Let's not run around bush. Sundby makes a habit of over-dosing asthma medicines for which he never got a medical waiver. He gets it administered on the much-lauded second floor of the wax trailer. Nebulized even, which is the non-standard for of administration. 1600ug gram of Salbutal are allowed, but 200ug already tends to sufffice for most sufferers, like myself. I can't walk to the supermarket almost without needing a hit. The same 200ug hit suffices for all-out cold start running. Despite dilution with lots of water, Sundy managed to be way above 1600ug. This is not an accident. This is the result of using, daily, a many times over anabolic dose of what actual patients need only a tiny bit of. Dosage is of course measured very conservatively.
Sundby lost a few results, but not a single race. Not a word from the commentator team over the magnitude of his doping, the obvious anabolic benefit he got, from a state-run "I can't believe it's not doping" program. Talking about secret rooms to taint samples...Norway has a secret room for taking illegal dosages of stimulants with so happen to be allowed up to a very high dosage for asthma sufferers, without paperwork.

Johaug, the blatant lies, backpedaling and obvious disregard of protocol, the arrogance with which she and the team handled her case, seems to get a total thumbs up pass from the British commentating team also. As if her dosage is possible with a lip balm. As if the required criminal levels of disregard exist for both a team doctor and atlete to miss the bolded "DOPING" sign on the least conspicuous medicine container they were able to come up with. Does it need to be spelled out to you? Norwegians take any steroid which theoretically is on the market as a balm or something, and because of lax testing (Therese is not exactly used to being tested off-season, she's above all suspicion, of course...), they slipped up, and didn't have the right container on hand, didn't fiile paperwork for it, and had to act stupid. Does this stupidity exist, do you believe that in your hearts? From such a dominant skiing nation?

Do you honestly believe that the huge 2nd world skiing country that is Russia needs to dope its athletes to the gills just to finish close to the ultra-cclean Norwegians? With all your sports knowledge, you are then looking away from the VAST effect that doping has. It is so huge, that it overcomes basically all talent and training deficiency, certainly at World Cup level. If Russians were the only doping country, and doping hard, they'd be doing to the field what the Norwegian women do in theirs. It's simple science and logic, rather than western politically correct retoric.

Have you forgotten Lance Armstrong, deemed cleaner than clean, casually beating all the EPO topped up Italian and Spanish superclimbers, having been a classics specialist until deathbed? What have commentators learned from that?
You have a sport to comment on, but bashing Russians just because it's the popular thing to do, it doesn't suit you. It's an insult to viewers who have read up a bitt on the matter, and it doesn'tt help the sport keep the likes of Norway to the same standards.

As a long time fan of the three of you, I am deeply disappointed by the tone and content of your words on the matter.
And this is coming from a hobby skier/racer who is a Norway fan. Used to idolize little Therese. Is actively learning the language preparing for getting a fflat or cabin there. Truth just needs to be told, and I feel you've been doing truth a disjustice. You do know bettter, and your audience deserves better.

Regards,

Jan Gerrit Klok
The Netherlands

The point is good - to draw attention to doping in Norway more. Agree with that. Some statements are controversial.
Kokoso
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Re:

25 Dec 2017 09:27

King Boonen wrote:Mod hat on: Several posts have been removed from this thread. I don't follow it so it's hard for me to know who is and isn't trying to wind each other up, but I can identify personal attacks and they won't be tolerated, neither will accusations of trolling.

Good work, thank you.
Kokoso
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Re:

25 Dec 2017 09:46

bambino wrote:To be fair both of you guys seem to have double standards (suspecting kokoso mainly for trolling purposes).

I remember discussion 3 pages ago where Bullsfan22 said something like "blah blah blah" about Dählie being talented while now using exactly the same argument for Ustiugov. Kokoso the opposite of course.

That was pretty mean of you bambino. Blatant lie. I've never told opposite for Daehlie and Ustiugov. You've chose never react to my reaction, taht just confirms it. Why are people really that mean. Guess internet discusiion has to do someting with that.

Edit: hope people wan't childishly bash me for old topic. Everybody is doing that, it's natural.
Kokoso
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

25 Dec 2017 09:52

BullsFan22 wrote:
Cloxxki wrote:@Discgear
Cheers mate. I hope others will also hold their commentators to a high standard on this topic. The sport is going no-where if we're just blaming Russians who haven't been caught outright for doping more than Norwegians who were. And other instances and levels is misinformation by effectively monopolistic broadcasters.

Exactly. I think you should have taken a bit further though.

You can do that on yourself. Just mind you one important thing - only asthma meds used without asthma diagnosis, that were specifically mentioned, are not on the WADA list, they are allowed for everyone, even without asthma diagnosis.

There was much fuss for this, people here talked about salbutamol, but it wasn't the case. It was Atrovent and Natrium chlorid solution. Allowed substances.
Kokoso
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

25 Dec 2017 15:26

Kokoso wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
Cloxxki wrote:@Discgear
Cheers mate. I hope others will also hold their commentators to a high standard on this topic. The sport is going no-where if we're just blaming Russians who haven't been caught outright for doping more than Norwegians who were. And other instances and levels is misinformation by effectively monopolistic broadcasters.

Exactly. I think you should have taken a bit further though.

You can do that on yourself. Just mind you one important thing - only asthma meds used without asthma diagnosis, that were specifically mentioned, are not on the WADA list, they are allowed for everyone, even without asthma diagnosis.

There was much fuss for this, people here talked about salbutamol, but it wasn't the case. It was Atrovent and Natrium chlorid solution. Allowed substances.

??? From FIS press release concerning Johnsrud Sundby:
While the medication is normally applied by a handheld metric dose inhaler (MDI), the athlete used a nebulizer to administer the prescribed salbutamol for the treatment of his asthma, which requires a higher labelled dosage than the MDI and thereby exceeded the allowed maximum dose,” FIS stated in its press release on Wednesday. “The FIS Doping Panel had therefore found that the athlete had not committed an anti-doping rule violation when he used a nebulizer as a legitimate means to administer salbutamol instead of a metric dose inhaler (MDI).
Discgear
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

25 Dec 2017 20:31

Discgear wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
Cloxxki wrote:@Discgear
Cheers mate. I hope others will also hold their commentators to a high standard on this topic. The sport is going no-where if we're just blaming Russians who haven't been caught outright for doping more than Norwegians who were. And other instances and levels is misinformation by effectively monopolistic broadcasters.

Exactly. I think you should have taken a bit further though.

You can do that on yourself. Just mind you one important thing - only asthma meds used without asthma diagnosis, that were specifically mentioned, are not on the WADA list, they are allowed for everyone, even without asthma diagnosis.

There was much fuss for this, people here talked about salbutamol, but it wasn't the case. It was Atrovent and Natrium chlorid solution. Allowed substances.

??? From FIS press release concerning Johnsrud Sundby:
While the medication is normally applied by a handheld metric dose inhaler (MDI), the athlete used a nebulizer to administer the prescribed salbutamol for the treatment of his asthma, which requires a higher labelled dosage than the MDI and thereby exceeded the allowed maximum dose,” FIS stated in its press release on Wednesday. “The FIS Doping Panel had therefore found that the athlete had not committed an anti-doping rule violation when he used a nebulizer as a legitimate means to administer salbutamol instead of a metric dose inhaler (MDI).

? I don't understand maybe? Sundby has asthma diagnosis, obviously I was not talking about his case.
Kokoso
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

25 Dec 2017 23:29

Sundby speaks of his diagnosis. But despite being a top elite skier, he never went through the trouble to explore a waiver for the good stuff. He just takes a multiple of the daily admitted dose through a nebulizer. Better than sneaky doping.
With Sundby (just a coincidence it was him getting caught over another Norwegian I'm afraid) it's the blatant disrespect for the intent of the limited general waiver for salbutamol, doping the heck out of it. If he needed this much to merely function in sports, he'd not make it to the big leagues. Or, have a huge dope advantage. But, he never got independently diagnosed that he needs this much. And his team doc didn't do it either, of didn't formalize the contrary findings. Smells of amateurism as could be born from protectionism within the sport and ADA's.
Johaug's case also has this stink of amateurism, but in different ways. The awkward lies, the inexcusable sttupidity both athlete and team doc bring forth as formal excuse for f'ing up. The underlying intent of doping with substances you can find an excuse for seems well in place, but there was previously no need to get it all nicely down in writing. "Johaug only responds well to lip balm with a controlled substance". They omitted this, and it cost her 2 years and her reputation. We know that many DO do their homework, and get away with it. Norwegians can just do without. Now that Sundby got caught, truth out about state nebulizing, what changed? Most focus on dosage, perhaps, and only for athletes with fresh paperwork, I can imagine.
The Johaug case seems to have brought forth paperwork also. It didn't exactly make the female team weaker so far. Still beating the rest of the world, especially those fully expected to be doped to the gills, because of their flag...
Cloxxki
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

26 Dec 2017 10:35

Kokoso wrote:
Discgear wrote:
Kokoso wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
Cloxxki wrote:@Discgear
Cheers mate. I hope others will also hold their commentators to a high standard on this topic. The sport is going no-where if we're just blaming Russians who haven't been caught outright for doping more than Norwegians who were. And other instances and levels is misinformation by effectively monopolistic broadcasters.

Exactly. I think you should have taken a bit further though.

You can do that on yourself. Just mind you one important thing - only asthma meds used without asthma diagnosis, that were specifically mentioned, are not on the WADA list, they are allowed for everyone, even without asthma diagnosis.

There was much fuss for this, people here talked about salbutamol, but it wasn't the case. It was Atrovent and Natrium chlorid solution. Allowed substances.

??? From FIS press release concerning Johnsrud Sundby:
While the medication is normally applied by a handheld metric dose inhaler (MDI), the athlete used a nebulizer to administer the prescribed salbutamol for the treatment of his asthma, which requires a higher labelled dosage than the MDI and thereby exceeded the allowed maximum dose,” FIS stated in its press release on Wednesday. “The FIS Doping Panel had therefore found that the athlete had not committed an anti-doping rule violation when he used a nebulizer as a legitimate means to administer salbutamol instead of a metric dose inhaler (MDI).

? I don't understand maybe? Sundby has asthma diagnosis, obviously I was not talking about his case.

Well, it wasn't obvious about who you were speaking about. And to be clear concerning the Norse, it was several testimonies about how easy it was to get an asthma diagnosis. It was even testimonies about how athletes were persuaded to test for asthma despite having no symptoms whatsoever. Further on, in the "independent" asthma report, it was written that the second floor in the trailer had a smorgosbord with asthma medication, even prescribed, that you were free to use along with a setup with Nebulizers. And remember, the asthma report didn't look into TUEs.
When it comes to the Russians, it is truly disturbing with the reports of widespread manipulation. However, we haven't so far seen any hard evidence. Rightly, Cloxxi did put forward the double standards in our sports media reporting the Russian vs the Norwegian doping scandals.
Discgear
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

26 Dec 2017 16:24

Discgear wrote:Well, it wasn't obvious about who you were speaking about.

It was very obvious, because Sundby has diagnosed asthma. That's the fact you knew and only fact one needs to know I wasn't speaking about Sundby. It was clear from the context of Bullsfan22's and mine post. Do do you still persevere it wasn't obvious?

I was talking about asthma meds without asthma diagnoses. Nothing you say contradicts what I've said regarding Norway, I don't quite get your point. We are not in dispute.

Regarding Russia, we have actually seen hard evidence.

Regarding what Cloxxki read, I've reacted on him this way: "The point is good - to draw attention to doping in Norway more. Agree with that." Maybe you've missed it. Just mind you - Cloxxki talked differently from you regarding Russia, maybe there's misunderstanding; basically he said there's doping in Russia and there's doping in Norway and commentators have double standards. He was in no doubts regarding doping in Russia, compared to you.
Kokoso
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26 Dec 2017 18:08

I agree on the double standards in many instances actually, not just Eurosport. I find the way the Russian matter is generalized pretty discusting to be fair. But I'm not in any kind of illusion that there hasn't been something wrong big time over there and actually there are several positive re-analysis of Russian athletes found from Sothsi. Funnily enough mainly lower name athletes which makes one wonder... still does not remover the fact that other nations are probably not much better, including Norway.
bambino
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29 Dec 2017 14:09

If I remember correctly, Sundy self-diagnosed (and actively broadcasted) his asthma. But, cotnrary to popular Norwegian tradition, actually not a TUE for it. Dosed via state doctor supplied, waxing truck installed vaporizer, roughly (conservatively) 10-20x the typical dosage, daily. And doesn't miss a race over it.
But if you're Russian, you're banned by default. What do you expect, being Russian and all?
Cloxxki
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

29 Dec 2017 22:26



Wow, that’s basically the entire Russian xc team, it’s so insane. Has something like this ever happened before? It came close with the finish skiers, and Austrians were also caught in a major way as I remember, but this seems to be an unprecedented scale?
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
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