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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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04 Feb 2018 21:28

It would be worrying if the experts frequently disagreed whether a set of samples of was suspicious or not. I'd hope this is generally not the case, so long as one's agreed on the threshold for suspicion.

The fact that the best performing athletes have a much higher share of suspicious sets of samples indicate that they're at least on to something.

For the purpose of transparency, insight and accountability, it's important that we have fact finding institutions (media) that don't have to follow as high standards of evidence and process as would be expected in a formal procedure.

As for the olympics that stands out with 9 gold medals won by "suspicious" athletes, what are the odds that we're talking about Torino?
blueskies
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

04 Feb 2018 22:19

ToreBear wrote:
blueskies wrote:Image

So of the big XC nations, the country with lowest percentage of suspicious athletes is Norway, which strangely is also the country who wins most. What a devastating blow to the narrative frequently pushed here and in other forums and media in other countries.


Thanks for posting that, I didn't get to see that whole table in the article I read. It's interesting. And it makes sense from my understanding of things.

But of course I'm just a fan boy. :lol:
do you really understand what you are cheering ?

i suspect you dont. At least I do not understand neither what you cheered nor that chart. it's a100% genuine remark with no dig at norway. if i misunderstand, pls fix me...

it's hardly a secret that norway dominates the fis testing pool of athletes. any percentage with abnormality would constitute a big number of the norwegians potentially doped. 12% of what ???

here's what the sunday times article says about the potential non-russian dopers:
'...Other countries also had big doping problems. More than 100 medals have been won by skiers from Norway, Germany, Sweden and Italy who recorded results that were judged to be suspicious...

so the article black on white said that norway had a big doping problem along with other countries...

are they wrong b/c they are not fanboys or they may have looked at the data wrongly. which i again submit is confusing. or they just mis-expressed the numbers you cheered but said in plain english that norway had a big doping problem ???

we need to sort out the data from the sunday times. perhaps you have a point but you seem too willing to take what's not clear in the data as some sort of conclusion...no ?
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

04 Feb 2018 23:02

python wrote:
ToreBear wrote:
blueskies wrote:Image

So of the big XC nations, the country with lowest percentage of suspicious athletes is Norway, which strangely is also the country who wins most. What a devastating blow to the narrative frequently pushed here and in other forums and media in other countries.


Thanks for posting that, I didn't get to see that whole table in the article I read. It's interesting. And it makes sense from my understanding of things.

But of course I'm just a fan boy. :lol:
do you really understand what you are cheering ?

i suspect you dont. At least I do not understand neither what you cheered nor that chart. it's a100% genuine remark with no dig at norway. if i misunderstand, pls fix me...

it's hardly a secret that norway dominates the fis testing pool of athletes. any percentage with abnormality would constitute a big number of the norwegians potentially doped. 12% of what ???

here's what the sunday times article says about the potential non-russian dopers:
'...Other countries also had big doping problems. More than 100 medals have been won by skiers from Norway, Germany, Sweden and Italy who recorded results that were judged to be suspicious...

so the article black on white said that norway had a big doping problem along with other countries...

are they wrong b/c they are not fanboys or they may have looked at the data wrongly. which i again submit is confusing. or they just mis-expressed the numbers you cheered but said in plain english that norway had a big doping problem ???

we need to sort out the data from the sunday times. perhaps you have a point but you seem too willing to take what's not clear in the data as some sort of conclusion...no ?


That chart simply shows the share of athletes from each country in the database who has registered suspicious blood values.

We don't know how many medals each country's suspicious athletes have won, nor do we know the degree of suspicion for the medal winners.

While it's very clear from looking at the statistics, that they're onto something and their method has predictive force (it scores much higher for medal winners), there are undoubtedly false positives as well.

It would be very naive to believe that any country is absolved from cheating athletes. As long as the rewards are high and the risks are low, there are always going to be cheaters - everywhere. And the general public is not aware of how easy it has been to cheat without detection. However, it's hard to reconcile that chart with the theory that Norway wins because they dope, at the very least, it's ironic that of all the big XC nations of recent times, Norway has the lowest share of suspicious athletes and lower than Sweden.

The curious thing about that chart in particular is that it corresponds fairly well with the stereotypes.
blueskies
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

05 Feb 2018 06:06

blueskies wrote:
python wrote:
ToreBear wrote:
blueskies wrote:Image

So of the big XC nations, the country with lowest percentage of suspicious athletes is Norway, which strangely is also the country who wins most. What a devastating blow to the narrative frequently pushed here and in other forums and media in other countries.


Thanks for posting that, I didn't get to see that whole table in the article I read. It's interesting. And it makes sense from my understanding of things.

But of course I'm just a fan boy. :lol:
do you really understand what you are cheering ?

i suspect you dont. At least I do not understand neither what you cheered nor that chart. it's a100% genuine remark with no dig at norway. if i misunderstand, pls fix me...

it's hardly a secret that norway dominates the fis testing pool of athletes. any percentage with abnormality would constitute a big number of the norwegians potentially doped. 12% of what ???

here's what the sunday times article says about the potential non-russian dopers:
'...Other countries also had big doping problems. More than 100 medals have been won by skiers from Norway, Germany, Sweden and Italy who recorded results that were judged to be suspicious...

so the article black on white said that norway had a big doping problem along with other countries...

are they wrong b/c they are not fanboys or they may have looked at the data wrongly. which i again submit is confusing. or they just mis-expressed the numbers you cheered but said in plain english that norway had a big doping problem ???

we need to sort out the data from the sunday times. perhaps you have a point but you seem too willing to take what's not clear in the data as some sort of conclusion...no ?


That chart simply shows the share of athletes from each country in the database who has registered suspicious blood values.

We don't know how many medals each country's suspicious athletes have won, nor do we know the degree of suspicion for the medal winners.

While it's very clear from looking at the statistics, that they're onto something and their method has predictive force (it scores much higher for medal winners), there are undoubtedly false positives as well.

It would be very naive to believe that any country is absolved from cheating athletes. As long as the rewards are high and the risks are low, there are always going to be cheaters - everywhere. And the general public is not aware of how easy it has been to cheat without detection. However, it's hard to reconcile that chart with the theory that Norway wins because they dope, at the very least, it's ironic that of all the big XC nations of recent times, Norway has the lowest share of suspicious athletes and lower than Sweden.

The curious thing about that chart in particular is that it corresponds fairly well with the stereotypes.

Norway and Sweden are practically tied in frequency in the chart (12% vs 13%), so it is misleading to characterize the share of suspicious athletes as lower than Sweden. And note that Finland and Italy, stereotypically dirty, are at the exact same level, too - 13% and 12%, respectively.

So I guess you could argue from this information that the big Nordic countries may have had a level playing field from 2001 to 2010, and that Norway did not have a notable pharmaceutical edge then. Three cheers for the Estil/Hjelmeset generation?

BTW, I am no statistician, but this layman's feeling is that if false positives are used as an explanation for much more than 1% of athletes - suspicion index is supposed to be 1 in 100 or below chance, after all - there is something fishy going on. This is especially the case for athletes with multiple "pings"...
alternator
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Re:

05 Feb 2018 06:56

blueskies wrote:It would be worrying if the experts frequently disagreed whether a set of samples of was suspicious or not. I'd hope this is generally not the case, so long as one's agreed on the threshold for suspicion.

The fact that the best performing athletes have a much higher share of suspicious sets of samples indicate that they're at least on to something.

For the purpose of transparency, insight and accountability, it's important that we have fact finding institutions (media) that don't have to follow as high standards of evidence and process as would be expected in a formal procedure.

As for the olympics that stands out with 9 gold medals won by "suspicious" athletes, what are the odds that we're talking about Torino?


Should be 2002 or 2006,naturally those two should be the most obvious one as blood manipulation was more or less a safe game as long as you didn't go about 50%.
(as long as your name was not Mühlegg, of course)
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

05 Feb 2018 08:27

blueskies wrote:That chart simply shows the share of athletes from each country in the database who has registered suspicious blood values.

i dont think you read the entire article. or if you did, you missed the important data and the point i was making.
let's try again...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blizzard-of-ski-doping-cheats-q3ltj2djm
you can easily find that the data base of athletes was 2000 of which abnormal/suspicious numbered 'more than 290'.

in another place, the article said: In terms of the highest number of athletes with abnormal test results overall, .....followed by Germany (20), France (18), Austria (16), Norway (16), Finland (15), Italy (12), Sweden (12), America (12), Switzerland (11) and Canada (10).

so, not only norway had more potential dopers than sweden (which is a minor point but still you seemed mislead) but also if the number 16 if divided by the data base total abnormal (290) or an entire pool (2000) does not lead to 12% in the chart you ran with...something is missing that the article hasn't specified.

again, how do you reconcile the article's black on white statement, that norway, among others had a big doping problem with the chart ?
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User avatar python
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

05 Feb 2018 11:56

python wrote:
blueskies wrote:That chart simply shows the share of athletes from each country in the database who has registered suspicious blood values.

i dont think you read the entire article. or if you did, you missed the important data and the point i was making.
let's try again...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blizzard-of-ski-doping-cheats-q3ltj2djm
you can easily find that the data base of athletes was 2000 of which abnormal/suspicious numbered 'more than 290'.

in another place, the article said: In terms of the highest number of athletes with abnormal test results overall, .....followed by Germany (20), France (18), Austria (16), Norway (16), Finland (15), Italy (12), Sweden (12), America (12), Switzerland (11) and Canada (10).

so, not only norway had more potential dopers than sweden (which is a minor point but still you seemed mislead) but also if the number 16 if divided by the data base total abnormal (290) or an entire pool (2000) does not lead to 12% in the chart you ran with...something is missing that the article hasn't specified.

again, how do you reconcile the article's black on white statement, that norway, among others had a big doping problem with the chart ?


You seem rather confused. Why would you divide the number of suspicious norwegians with the total abnormal (290) or entire pool of athletes (2000)? The chart shows percentage of skiers with suspicious blood test results by country. As in what percentage of french skiers had at least one 1/100 off-score? Apparently it's 29% of french skiers. 12% of norwegian skiers. 34% of russian skiers. Get it?
John de Savage
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

05 Feb 2018 12:06

So the French were more suspicious than the Norwegians? LOL.

Also some countries that are consistently at the back of the pack also having interestingly high numbers. The graphic just doesn't make sense. It's like it was made to appease someone.


Wonder if asthma meds figured into the 'leak.'
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

05 Feb 2018 13:36

BullsFan22 wrote:Also some countries that are consistently at the back of the pack also having interestingly high numbers. The graphic just doesn't make sense. It's like it was made to appease someone.
Care to explain why it doesn't make any sense? If you're from a lesser nation and suck at skiing, you're still not going to win even though you've juiced up a little bit. Of course unless you wanna get caught right away like Mühlegg and Dürr.
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05 Feb 2018 15:10

Python the rate is 12% of norwegians had 1 or more suspicious samples. Since there should be a lot of Norwegians in the database, likely more than any other country there will likely be more individual norwegian skiers that are pinged, but the rate is still the same.

The impressions one sometimes gets in this forum is that norway should have rates more in the range of Russia.
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Re:

05 Feb 2018 18:05

ToreBear wrote:Python the rate is 12% of norwegians had 1 or more suspicious samples. Since there should be a lot of Norwegians in the database, likely more than any other country there will likely be more individual norwegian skiers that are pinged, but the rate is still the same.

The impressions one sometimes gets in this forum is that norway should have rates more in the range of Russia.


I agree. Not much to interpret here. Norwegians appear to be one of the nations which have rather few abnormalities regarding their blood values. And a percentage is a relative number - this should also be clear, as well as it should be clear that in absolut terms it is likely that still a lot of Norwegians are involved, simply because of the sheer number of athletes.

“Smaller“ nations may appear higher on this list, because they have fewer athletes. In the end blood values are only a part of the big picture, as we know now that for example asthma medicine or painkillers are too widespread substances which are abused by top tier athletes. But they won't show up in a blood test.
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05 Feb 2018 19:39

OK I have had a little time to light a fire under my grey cells.

What is important to remember is that this is likely a database with only the raw blood data and that they are using a criteria that likely gives a huge amount of false positives. Meaning there are likely a lot of clean athletes that are included in their suspicious list. The upside of that is that those with no suspicious activity are extremely likely to be clean as in not blod doped.
Another important thing to remember was that the testing was not standardized until 2004-2005. That means the variation in measuremnts is likely to be a lot higher than after the standardization. Meaning there could be a lot of suspicions that are due to measuring errors before 2004-05

quote bo Berglund:
https://www.svt.se/sport/vintersport/dopningsexpert-1
orignal:
En av Sveriges ledande experter på området blodpass är Bo Berglund, som också sitter med i det medicinska rådet. Han har inte sett Uppdrag granskning men menar att det är oerhört komplext och att man ska vara försiktig med vad man säger.

– Det görs fel i provtagning, analys, det ligger liksom osäkerhet i det här. Har man klämt armen på rätt sätt, har man suttit och vilat på rätt tidpunkter och tillräckligt länge. Allt det här ska göras på standardiserat sätt och vi tog fram regler för det där kring 2004-2005, säger Berglund och fortsätter:

– Innan dess var det ”hej och hå” med standardiseringen. Så man måste också se när det här var taget. Det här är inte så lätt att det är ett värde man bara kastar fram.

google translate:
One of Sweden's leading experts in the field of blood pass is Bo Berglund, who is also in the medical council. He has not seen mission review but believes it is extremely complex and that you should be careful about what you say.

- It's done wrong in sampling, analysis, it's like uncertainty in this. If you have stuck your arm correctly, you have been sitting and resting at the right time and for a long time. All this should be done in a standardized manner and we developed rules for that around 2004-2005, "Berglund says, continuing:

"Before then it was" hello and hope "with the standardization. So one must also see when this was taken. This is not so easy that it's a value you just throw out.


Since it is likely raw data, it is unlikely to contain notes like:
*caught for doping as a result of increased testing on athlete,
* athlete was ill,
* xxx machine broken, used yyy device instead.

So that means there are a lot of things that could cause a suspicious ping not related to any doping. However if there are repeat suspicions for an athlete the chance of it being the result of an error is reduced. Also they require only one of four experts to see a reading as suspicious before including it in the suspicious group.

So the Data needs filtering/washing.
How many are suspicious if:
* Testing prior to 2004/5 is exluded
* Graded according to the amount of suspicious samples per athlete. I.e how many had one/2/3/etc suspicious samples.
* Graded according to samples degree of expert agreement. I.e. How many were marked suspicious by 1/2/3/4 experts.

So a tabloid question like: Why weren't these people caught? The answer might very well be because they didn't dope.

Also important to remember about statistics. The French have very few racers. So it takes fewer tests for them to stick out. Now lets say all the suspicious tests were taken in the period before testing standardization. The suspicious reading could have an explanation that the French team were sending lets say dehydrated skiers to take samples. Thereby everybody theoretically has screwed up readings. Hence the statistical effect of just a few errors becomes huge.


So in essence: this info is interesting but it really can not say much new about doping in XC until at least some of the sources for error can be accounted for. But I would love it if the Times would give me the database. Then I might have a crack at seeing if there were any dopers that weren't caught.
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Re:

05 Feb 2018 20:48

ToreBear wrote:Python the rate is 12% of norwegians had 1 or more suspicious samples. Since there should be a lot of Norwegians in the database, likely more than any other country there will likely be more individual norwegian skiers that are pinged, but the rate is still the same.

The impressions one sometimes gets in this forum is that norway should have rates more in the range of Russia.


Yeah this is fairly simple math. 16 Norwegians with abnormal result(s) represents 12% of all Norwegians, so there is around 133 Norwegians in the database.

More stricking to me is the relatively low number of Norwegians compared to other nations in the database. I.e using same math there are 150 Russians, 115 Finns and 92 Swedes in that database.

My suspision of some countries getting tested more frequent than others is getting stronger given Norway has definitely had most athletes in top level from all nations by far, probably followed by Sweden.
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05 Feb 2018 21:07

Concerning the Norwegians, it is necessary to point out, that they emerged out of nowhere just before Olympic Games at Albertville, their main task were Olympics in Norway 2 years latter. And in fact majority of them just disappeared before or when tests on EPO were introduced. Together with Italians they were main protagonists of EPO at that time ... .
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

06 Feb 2018 00:14

Yep, the Norwegians are such 'super men/women' that not even government sponsored doping programs can beat them....Give me a break.

Do people REALLY still think that? Really?

The higher you go in pro sport the higher the chances of doping. If all of these countries like Russia, France, Germany, Austria, Finland, Italy, etc had 'more' doping than the Norwegians and even the Swedes, wouldn't they be the ones dominating the sport? And please, let's not go back to the 2010/2011 debates on 'better grinds, better skis, better equipment, better culture, better food, etc.' Those are stories for little kids of beginners of the sport.
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06 Feb 2018 02:20

So this must all mean that the Russians are the victims of an even greater political conspiracy than first thought, not only were they wrongly accused of doping in Sochi, but someone has actually gone to the trouble of fabricating hundreds of blood results over a 7 year span just to disparage Russia as a nation!

On a serious note, this lends some credence to the doping “intuition” that most people have, nothing really surprising. I do however, wonder how much altitude training would impact these results. We know that elite endurance athletes are self selected for high Hb, and the addition of “living high, training low” might tip values into suspicious territory.
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Re: Re:

06 Feb 2018 06:51

bambino wrote:
ToreBear wrote:Python the rate is 12% of norwegians had 1 or more suspicious samples. Since there should be a lot of Norwegians in the database, likely more than any other country there will likely be more individual norwegian skiers that are pinged, but the rate is still the same.

The impressions one sometimes gets in this forum is that norway should have rates more in the range of Russia.


Yeah this is fairly simple math. 16 Norwegians with abnormal result(s) represents 12% of all Norwegians, so there is around 133 Norwegians in the database.

More stricking to me is the relatively low number of Norwegians compared to other nations in the database. I.e using same math there are 150 Russians, 115 Finns and 92 Swedes in that database.

My suspision of some countries getting tested more frequent than others is getting stronger given Norway has definitely had most athletes in top level from all nations by far, probably followed by Sweden.

Talking about men, I'm pretty sure Norway and Russia have been the top two nations in the number of top level athletes. It may even be that there have been more Russian men with top level results - say, top 15 in world cup - than Norwegian men, due to more variance in the national team membership because of certain reasons :)

Even with women, there have been a lot of different Russian women in their teams over the years. They just have been mostly stuck to placings between 10-30. Meanwhile the same Norwegian top women have monopolized their world cup slots for years and years.

Salt Lake City 2002 really must be the Olympic games that had 9 gold medals won by athletes with suspicious profiles - just looking at immediately or later caught athletes, Muhlegg x 3, Veerpalu, Danilova, Tchepalova, Lazutina, and Sachenbacher on the relay team already makes it 8.
You can take your pick from Skari, Hetland, Belmondo, Aukland, Estil, Skjeldal, Alsgaard, Henkel, Bauer or Kunzel for the remaining one, I personally think there are several candidates.
alternator
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Re: Re:

06 Feb 2018 07:27

alternator wrote:
bambino wrote:
ToreBear wrote:Python the rate is 12% of norwegians had 1 or more suspicious samples. Since there should be a lot of Norwegians in the database, likely more than any other country there will likely be more individual norwegian skiers that are pinged, but the rate is still the same.

The impressions one sometimes gets in this forum is that norway should have rates more in the range of Russia.


Yeah this is fairly simple math. 16 Norwegians with abnormal result(s) represents 12% of all Norwegians, so there is around 133 Norwegians in the database.

More stricking to me is the relatively low number of Norwegians compared to other nations in the database. I.e using same math there are 150 Russians, 115 Finns and 92 Swedes in that database.

My suspision of some countries getting tested more frequent than others is getting stronger given Norway has definitely had most athletes in top level from all nations by far, probably followed by Sweden.

Talking about men, I'm pretty sure Norway and Russia have been the top two nations in the number of top level athletes. It may even be that there have been more Russian men with top level results - say, top 15 in world cup - than Norwegian men, due to more variance in the national team membership because of certain reasons :)

Even with women, there have been a lot of different Russian women in their teams over the years. They just have been mostly stuck to placings between 10-30. Meanwhile the same Norwegian top women have monopolized their world cup slots for years and years.

Salt Lake City 2002 really must be the Olympic games that had 9 gold medals won by athletes with suspicious profiles - just looking at immediately or later caught athletes, Muhlegg x 3, Veerpalu, Danilova, Tchepalova, Lazutina, and Sachenbacher on the relay team already makes it 8.
You can take your pick from Skari, Hetland, Belmondo, Aukland, Estil, Skjeldal, Alsgaard, Henkel, Bauer or Kunzel for the remaining one, I personally think there are several candidates.


The numbers are so high that this does not limit to top skiers only, even when span accross 10 years. I'm pretty sure the number of different Norwegians competing i.e. in FIS/Scandinavian Cup level has been far greater than any other nation.

On the other hand, the Finns were ugly bad after 2001 incident and started to catch up again around 2005-2006 with Kuitunen mainly raising the bar, the mens were equally bad the whole decade between 2001-2010. Thus it is quite interesting that there are almost equal amount of Finns compared to Norwegians and far greater number than Swedes. I guess the "reputation" after 2001 is driving this, which is exactly my point. If someone gets caught, the whole nation will be tested more frequently than others, which in some sense is understandable, but gives the edge and lower risk to the ones who are not stupid enough to get caught.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

06 Feb 2018 13:37

BullsFan22 wrote:Yep, the Norwegians are such 'super men/women' that not even government sponsored doping programs can beat them....Give me a break.

Do people REALLY still think that? Really?

The higher you go in pro sport the higher the chances of doping. If all of these countries like Russia, France, Germany, Austria, Finland, Italy, etc had 'more' doping than the Norwegians and even the Swedes, wouldn't they be the ones dominating the sport? And please, let's not go back to the 2010/2011 debates on 'better grinds, better skis, better equipment, better culture, better food, etc.' Those are stories for little kids of beginners of the sport.


Except well known dopers have indeed beaten the norwegians and swedes and convincingly so.

Salt Lake City, Lahti to mention a couple.

A couple of other factors:

The norwegians generally perform worse in championships than in the world cup, while many of the athletes from suspected nations perform better during the championships.

The norwegians generally perform well during the entirety of their careers. Some of them are of course suspicious, which is to be expected in an era of free for all doping, just like some swedes are suspicious, but there's no indication of organized doping, and that notion is backed up by the data just released.

In 2001, the same expert that is behind these recent analyses, made a list of highly suspicious athletes based on blood analysis, this list it made it to the media. It had 12 athletes, no norwegians and no swedes. All 12 of them were later caught for doping. There's a pattern here. https://www.nrk.no/sport/--langrenn-er-renere-enn-pa-30-ar-1.7585215

XC skiing is a bigger sport in Norway than in any other country and by a big margin. The talent pool in Norway is considerably bigger than in any other nation. The best endurance talents often choose XC skiing.

You say shouldn't the dopers dominate the sport? Well, where did the italians go after the 90s? Where did the austrians go? These skiers were never talented enough in the first place. Skiers like Elofsson and Dæhlie were good enough to beat them cleanly. The norwegians have always been there. It's laughable one poster tried to assert that the norwegians came from "nowhere" in the early 90s :rolleyes: ; XC skiing is inherently a norwegian sport and has been dominated by norwegian skiers since its inception. in 1982, before any EPO era, Norway took 7 golds in the nordic skiing WC, before Soviet with 2 golds.
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06 Feb 2018 14:30

Dählie clean? The king of the no-limits nineties? That's a bit far fetched to me, but lets say a brave belief if genuine. ;) Talented yes, but my impression is more was suggested.

As for remarks about the Finnish drought from Lahti to 2010.... Saarinen accompanied Kuitunen as a performer in the late 2000s (multiple gold in Liberec, one individual). Also Heikkinen started to perform in 2009 (two bronzes in Liberec, one individual), albeit sporadically.

In recent years dopers, in fact proven dopers, have dominated the sport: namely Johaug & Sundby. And we know of the asthma truck, too. That Italians and Austrians have fallen behind in the game does not alter that other dopers dominate.

Also, trying to see the forest from the trees again, the current discussion is ongoing in the first place because of the revelation of a substantial number of blood abnormalities amongst medal winners in the past 15 years or so. Maybe they are all altitude related, but I have my doubts. Accompanied by the news about suspicious stuff amongst the Russians and the Norwegians maybe the suggested conclusion is not that the sport is cleans. Not mine anyway.
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