Log in:  

Register

Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Eshnar, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

Re:

05 Dec 2018 21:47

python wrote:still on the top, but after her doping vacation, johaug seems to slow down a bit...at least the gaps formally reaching minutes are now in the range of a dozen seconds. i think i am guessing why ...her lips dont chap any more :D

most returning dopers in endurance sports show similar tendencies....



lol what? She absolutely crushes the field two weekends in a row now, probably steeped in training waiting to peak for worlds and still beating the rest with half a minute over 10k. What sport are you watching? There’s one Swede that seems able to follow though, young girl, might hopefully contend in a couple of years.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 208
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

06 Dec 2018 00:40

it sound like you watching something that is taking place in your own brain as opposed to what everyone else....

if 9 seconds over ebba was 'absolutely crushing' or a dozen seconds or so a day before, than you are a little, or majorly confused....
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,983
Joined: 25 Sep 2009 01:01

Re: Doping in XC skiing

06 Dec 2018 14:34

Yeah I already mentioned Ebba as an exemption, she didn’t use to compete in world tour so hard to say how they matched before tha ban. Not sure how that’s a difficult concept...
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 208
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

06 Dec 2018 14:57

you are still very confused. i am not sure how a gap of mere seconds not just to ebba (take a look at the official fis results, sparky) is 'absolutely crushing'. not a difficult concept. unless one is invested in distorted personal time perception.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,983
Joined: 25 Sep 2009 01:01

08 Dec 2018 21:56

So 3/3 wins so far, half a minute, 9sec (15 to Kalla) in the 10k’s and over a minute in the 15k. I don’t know how you define domination but this certainly looks like it to me. Funny you insinuate that she’s now clean(er) after her ban and has declined performance wise lol laughable bias at display.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 208
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

09 Dec 2018 14:01

It's of course hard to compare as the courses and the order of events are different, but I tried to compare anyway. The first 10 km F event was quite far in 2015/16 season, so I compared also to doubled times for 5 km F. Comparing the margins not only to the 2nd, but to everyone, it looks pretty clear that Johaug is roughly as dominant now as she was in 2015/16.

Image

Image

Image
Googolplex
Junior Member
 
Posts: 103
Joined: 23 May 2015 09:23

09 Dec 2018 16:42

Wow, good work on the graphs, interesting. It seems clearly apparent that she is as dominant as ever, but when you have an agenda and a strong hatred for Norwegian skiers facts don’t matter. You see what you want to see.
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 208
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

Re:

10 Dec 2018 09:19

Googolplex wrote:It's of course hard to compare as the courses and the order of events are different, but I tried to compare anyway.
indeed a good attempt at a comparison in a systematic way, but still taking only some races and not the others where her gaps reached minutes, does not bode well for accuracy. i use an approximate criteria of 3% to a runner up. any performances in such a range at elite elvel are suspicious. Johoug had quite a few of such devastating performance in her pre-doping past and none so far. as the season goes on, she may.

regarding a spaky whining around this thread, as any primitive interpreter, he resorts to others hating his compatriot object of adulation. not withstanding that i frequently complement and root for such norwegians like iversen, roethe, heidi weng etc. unlike you, a fanboy would always labours with a simple notion that lil therese was caught with an anabolic steroid in her system and, after 2 years of suspension, may have pulled back on the full program. perhaps an uncomplicated notion like this can not penetrate.

anyways, appreciate you investing the time.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,983
Joined: 25 Sep 2009 01:01

Re: Re:

10 Dec 2018 17:28

python wrote:indeed a good attempt at a comparison in a systematic way, but still taking only some races and not the others where her gaps reached minutes, does not bode well for accuracy. i use an approximate criteria of 3% to a runner up. any performances in such a range at elite elvel are suspicious. Johoug had quite a few of such devastating performance in her pre-doping past and none so far. as the season goes on, she may.


I wasn't cherry picking in any direction. I simply picked the most representative races from the season before the ban (same distance, style, part of season). I did have a look at earlier seasons too, but she was mostly worse then. But as you insisted, I looked all races she has won in World Cup and Championships. I don't have the spreadsheet on this computer, so at least for now, it's only winning margins.

Winning margins, excluding pursuits, ordered by s/km

2016 Oslo 30 km C Mst 216,5
2015 Lillehammer 15 km Skiathlon 89,3
2016 Montreal 10,5 km C Mst 60,3
2015 Davos 15 km F 70,3
2018 Beitostolen 15 km F 65,9

2016 Lahti 15 km Skiathlon 65,5
2014 Davos 10 km C 42,5
2014 Ruka 10 km C 42,2
2016 Falun 5 km C 18,6
2015 Ruka 5 km F 17,6
2014 Val di Fiemme 5 km C 14,9
2015 Toblach 10 km C 28,2
2016 Lenzerheide 15 km C Mst 37,9
2018 Ruka 10 km C 22,5
2014 Falun 15 km Skiathlon 33,6
2012 Rybinsk 15 km Skiathlon 26,9
2015 Falun 30 km C Mst 52,3
2013 Oslo 30 km F Mst 46,6
2011 Oslo 30 km F Mst 44
2013 Val di Fiemme 10 km F 10,2
2016 Oberstdorf 10 km C Mst 9,9
2018 Lillehammer 10 km F 9,2
2013 Davos 10 km F 8,9
2016 Falun 10 km F Mst 8,8
2012 Lahti 15 km Skiathlon 10,8
2016 Nove Mesto 10 km F 4,6
2015 Falun 15 km Skiathlon 5,7
2015 Val di Fiemme 10 C Mst 1,1
2014 Lillehammer 5 km F 0,3

Top 2 are indeed stunning, but they are mass starts. There hasn't been a mass start this season, so there is nothing to compare. Also, while in men the mass starts mostly lessen the gaps, in women they can have an opposite effect if a dominant athlete goes away early. The 3rd is also a mass start, and a part of long tour. She definitely won it dominantly, but also suffered from the effort later and didn't win any stage after that. The next 2, her best individual starts, were in the graphs. In 2014 she had 2 dominant 10 km races, so maybe I include them in the graph when I get to it. Anyway, she is rather variable, sometimes she wins by a lot, sometimes by only a little, or even loses. This season she has 3/3 (or 4/4 if you count the pursuit) in normal distances and margins to the field are comparable to the start of 2015/16 season, so it's hard to say she wouldn't be as dominant/good as before.
Googolplex
Junior Member
 
Posts: 103
Joined: 23 May 2015 09:23

Re: Re:

11 Dec 2018 10:23

Googolplex:
I wasn't cherry picking in any direction

i dont think you were. i only suggested a limitation of your comparison realizing that any systematic comparison in a multivariable sport like xc country has a limitation...

yet, i typically consider comparing the winner's result to the 2nd and expressing it as a percent difference is the best available tool. why ? b/c it removes many variables. it evaluates a performance in the date, same distance, same style (fee vs fee etc), same weather (snow), same altitude, same course profiles.

granted, i trust you attempted an objective systematic approach. but comparing davos 15k (altitude) to beito 15k with their differences in terrain etc would predictably skew the result. in you 2nd post you considered the issue.

let me clarify some of what i try to convey...

1. no one can ignore that johaug is again dominant. it's an objective fact. i only observe that on the basis of limited evidence (per my the methodology of relative gaps) she hasn't (yet) demonstrated the superiority she had prior to being downed for doping.
2. the case in point is the last weekend where she achieved both her smallest and largest gaps so far. specifically, she beat parma by only 2.1 sec (.2%) in a classic leg. both ran all out due to the racing situation. it sort of speaks to my point. BUT, to be fair your point was also present. she beat kalla in long itt on saturday by 2.8%, which is close to my 3% threshold.
3. regarding the lady's mass starts...while it is true, the gaps are frequently big, yet it is worth mentioning that women tend to race all out (that is, use minimum tactics) compared to men. thus, the insane superiority achieved by johaug in the past was close to her real superiority over other girls.

we need to wait. i think johaug is beatable in short classic distance races, and much harder to beat in longer skating races. the new generation (ebba primarily) need to match her watt/kg to beat her.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,983
Joined: 25 Sep 2009 01:01

13 Dec 2018 07:54

Such a long winded word salad to move goal posts and back pedal without looking obvious, but ultimately unsuccessful. You are caught in the weird position of claiming she is now scaled back from a doping program and lacking old fitness and dominance. Meanwhile she wins everything she starts with huge margins except for one race. If you claim her to be clean now, the implications of her dominance still is obvious, so you explain why 30sec to more than a minute and 3/3 distance wins (not even long distance where she truly excels mind you) is a non dominant performance and it’s hilarious to watch:)
For what it’s worth, I’m not a fan of Johaug or women’s skiing as the field is so weak and dominated by a few. I enjoyed watching Bjorgen as she was a one in a century performer, but otherwise I welcomed a break from Johaug and I’m mostly rooting for the Americans, Finns and Swedes. But I got to call out ridiculousness when I see it!
«Sky helped for the GC, so did BMC - a lot of teams tried but one rider isn't enough. Not against De Gendt. He's like 10 riders.»
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 208
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

13 Dec 2018 09:11

such a weird denial of an obvious where one former doper is THE object of the incessant defense. and still confused about the details. completely clueless about the 2 people attempting a systematic approach. moreover, accusing those who are free to express their opinion on doping, accusing of hatred towards norwegians is beyond primitive, it is indicative of a disorder.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
User avatar python
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,983
Joined: 25 Sep 2009 01:01

13 Dec 2018 13:00

Once again Russian biathletes and officials are in a spot of bother for potential anti-doping infractions, this time related to the 2017 World Championships in Hochfilzen.

http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/ibu-statement-concerning-actions-by-austrian-state-authorities
User avatar Big_Blue_Dave
Member
 
Posts: 316
Joined: 14 Mar 2009 10:28
Location: Liverpool, UK

Re:

13 Dec 2018 18:20

Big_Blue_Dave wrote:Once again Russian biathletes and officials are in a spot of bother for potential anti-doping infractions, this time related to the 2017 World Championships in Hochfilzen.

http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/ibu-statement-concerning-actions-by-austrian-state-authorities

Russian press has now named those involved. Two of them are extremely unsurprising, considering they had come off of bans, and been immediately very good, Ricco Groß had been trying to keep one of them out of the team, then they went well at the European Championships to qualify for the World Championships and were good there too. One of them despite achieving very little until they were 27, and who sucked out loud last season but was very good in Hochfilzen both then and now.

5 officials:
Aleksandr Kasperovich, Artem Kryntsilov, Aleksandr Selyavkin, Evgeniy Shutov, Dmitry Topychkanov

5 athletes:
Evgeniy Garanichev, Aleksandr Loginov, Anton Shipulin, Irina Starykh, Alexey Volkov

However there is still very little information available that elaborates on what the accusations are in terms of what they did, and obviously no formal antidoping charges have been made as Starykh raced today. Shipulin and Loginov are the only ones thus far to comment, both deny everything as you'd anticipate.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,760
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 11:54
Location: Land of Saíz

Re: Re:

14 Dec 2018 00:53

Libertine Seguros wrote:
Big_Blue_Dave wrote:Once again Russian biathletes and officials are in a spot of bother for potential anti-doping infractions, this time related to the 2017 World Championships in Hochfilzen.

http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/ibu-statement-concerning-actions-by-austrian-state-authorities

Russian press has now named those involved. Two of them are extremely unsurprising, considering they had come off of bans, and been immediately very good, Ricco Groß had been trying to keep one of them out of the team, then they went well at the European Championships to qualify for the World Championships and were good there too. One of them despite achieving very little until they were 27, and who sucked out loud last season but was very good in Hochfilzen both then and now.

5 officials:
Aleksandr Kasperovich, Artem Kryntsilov, Aleksandr Selyavkin, Evgeniy Shutov, Dmitry Topychkanov

5 athletes:
Evgeniy Garanichev, Aleksandr Loginov, Anton Shipulin, Irina Starykh, Alexey Volkov

However there is still very little information available that elaborates on what the accusations are in terms of what they did, and obviously no formal antidoping charges have been made as Starykh raced today. Shipulin and Loginov are the only ones thus far to comment, both deny everything as you'd anticipate.



It took them almost two years to get something going. No positive tests, no adverse findings? Anything? Was Rodchenkov involved again, somehow?

To the bold: see Johaug.

And what about Ricco Groß? His name was not on the list. Why is that? He was the head coach during that period. Eerily similar to last year and Wolfgang Pichler. Russian athletes and coaches don't get invited to Pyeongchang, but Pichler, a German, who was the head coach of the women's team 2011-2015, gets to go. He himself has denied that during his time there, none of his athletes doped. So what's going on?
BullsFan22
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,129
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 21:19

Re: Re:

14 Dec 2018 12:43

BullsFan22 wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:
Big_Blue_Dave wrote:Once again Russian biathletes and officials are in a spot of bother for potential anti-doping infractions, this time related to the 2017 World Championships in Hochfilzen.

http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/ibu-statement-concerning-actions-by-austrian-state-authorities

Russian press has now named those involved. Two of them are extremely unsurprising, considering they had come off of bans, and been immediately very good, Ricco Groß had been trying to keep one of them out of the team, then they went well at the European Championships to qualify for the World Championships and were good there too. One of them despite achieving very little until they were 27, and who sucked out loud last season but was very good in Hochfilzen both then and now.

5 officials:
Aleksandr Kasperovich, Artem Kryntsilov, Aleksandr Selyavkin, Evgeniy Shutov, Dmitry Topychkanov

5 athletes:
Evgeniy Garanichev, Aleksandr Loginov, Anton Shipulin, Irina Starykh, Alexey Volkov

However there is still very little information available that elaborates on what the accusations are in terms of what they did, and obviously no formal antidoping charges have been made as Starykh raced today. Shipulin and Loginov are the only ones thus far to comment, both deny everything as you'd anticipate.



It took them almost two years to get something going. No positive tests, no adverse findings? Anything? Was Rodchenkov involved again, somehow?

To the bold: see Johaug.

And what about Ricco Groß? His name was not on the list. Why is that? He was the head coach during that period. Eerily similar to last year and Wolfgang Pichler. Russian athletes and coaches don't get invited to Pyeongchang, but Pichler, a German, who was the head coach of the women's team 2011-2015, gets to go. He himself has denied that during his time there, none of his athletes doped. So what's going on?


Reading the details in full, this has not been set by Austria's Anti-Doping, nor the IBU, but the state department of the State Attorney for the Prosecution of Economic Offences and Corruption. This means, a little like Operacion Puerto, the people running the case are likely to have been pressing for access to other data first before they could say they know who via DNA or other data.

The athlete names are not massive surprises, maybe Shipulin when you look at his performances overall, though if you look at their individual results from the IBU WCH in 2017 only Garanichev looks odd as his performances dipped.
User avatar Big_Blue_Dave
Member
 
Posts: 316
Joined: 14 Mar 2009 10:28
Location: Liverpool, UK

14 Dec 2018 18:12

One thought on this is that Russian biathlon is very factional. The Governor of Tyumen' is quite high up in the Russian biathlon federation, and three of the five athletes named - Starykh, Loginov and Garanichev - represent Tyumen' in the national events. There has often been pressure from up high not just to have the team be successful, but have the team be successful with the desired composition. Periodically, this becomes disruptive as athletes are set up to fail or omitted for selection in favour of less successful athletes from the right region. Ricco Groß was, throughout that 2016-17 season, arguing against Loginov's inclusion at the World Cup on the basis of prudence given the Realpolitik at the time, but was overruled thanks to his performances at the European Championships, therefore those World Championships were the first time that season that Groß had been involved with Loginov - he couldn't train with the team in the pre-season as his suspension didn't end until the season had begun, got to the international track via Izhevsk, and then tonked everybody on the IBU Cup. Shipulin, like Katya Yurlova-Percht, has enough standing within the team that he does his own training apart from the squad off-season, with his own personal coaches. Volkov is his training partner. So actually here I think Groß does have a level of plausible deniability as Garanichev would be the only one of those he would have had significant full ongoing responsibility over..
User avatar Libertine Seguros
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,760
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 11:54
Location: Land of Saíz

Re:

14 Dec 2018 20:27

Libertine Seguros wrote:One thought on this is that Russian biathlon is very factional. The Governor of Tyumen' is quite high up in the Russian biathlon federation, and three of the five athletes named - Starykh, Loginov and Garanichev - represent Tyumen' in the national events. There has often been pressure from up high not just to have the team be successful, but have the team be successful with the desired composition. Periodically, this becomes disruptive as athletes are set up to fail or omitted for selection in favour of less successful athletes from the right region. Ricco Groß was, throughout that 2016-17 season, arguing against Loginov's inclusion at the World Cup on the basis of prudence given the Realpolitik at the time, but was overruled thanks to his performances at the European Championships, therefore those World Championships were the first time that season that Groß had been involved with Loginov - he couldn't train with the team in the pre-season as his suspension didn't end until the season had begun, got to the international track via Izhevsk, and then tonked everybody on the IBU Cup. Shipulin, like Katya Yurlova-Percht, has enough standing within the team that he does his own training apart from the squad off-season, with his own personal coaches. Volkov is his training partner. So actually here I think Groß does have a level of plausible deniability as Garanichev would be the only one of those he would have had significant full ongoing responsibility over..



So it's guilt by association? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
BullsFan22
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,129
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 21:19

Re: Re:

14 Dec 2018 20:31

Big_Blue_Dave wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:
Big_Blue_Dave wrote:Once again Russian biathletes and officials are in a spot of bother for potential anti-doping infractions, this time related to the 2017 World Championships in Hochfilzen.

http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/ibu-statement-concerning-actions-by-austrian-state-authorities

Russian press has now named those involved. Two of them are extremely unsurprising, considering they had come off of bans, and been immediately very good, Ricco Groß had been trying to keep one of them out of the team, then they went well at the European Championships to qualify for the World Championships and were good there too. One of them despite achieving very little until they were 27, and who sucked out loud last season but was very good in Hochfilzen both then and now.

5 officials:
Aleksandr Kasperovich, Artem Kryntsilov, Aleksandr Selyavkin, Evgeniy Shutov, Dmitry Topychkanov

5 athletes:
Evgeniy Garanichev, Aleksandr Loginov, Anton Shipulin, Irina Starykh, Alexey Volkov

However there is still very little information available that elaborates on what the accusations are in terms of what they did, and obviously no formal antidoping charges have been made as Starykh raced today. Shipulin and Loginov are the only ones thus far to comment, both deny everything as you'd anticipate.



It took them almost two years to get something going. No positive tests, no adverse findings? Anything? Was Rodchenkov involved again, somehow?

To the bold: see Johaug.

And what about Ricco Groß? His name was not on the list. Why is that? He was the head coach during that period. Eerily similar to last year and Wolfgang Pichler. Russian athletes and coaches don't get invited to Pyeongchang, but Pichler, a German, who was the head coach of the women's team 2011-2015, gets to go. He himself has denied that during his time there, none of his athletes doped. So what's going on?


Reading the details in full, this has not been set by Austria's Anti-Doping, nor the IBU, but the state department of the State Attorney for the Prosecution of Economic Offences and Corruption. This means, a little like Operacion Puerto, the people running the case are likely to have been pressing for access to other data first before they could say they know who via DNA or other data.

The athlete names are not massive surprises, maybe Shipulin when you look at his performances overall, though if you look at their individual results from the IBU WCH in 2017 only Garanichev looks odd as his performances dipped.



How many medals did the Russians win at the 2017 World Champs?
BullsFan22
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,129
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 21:19

Re: Re:

14 Dec 2018 21:47

BullsFan22 wrote:
Libertine Seguros wrote:
Big_Blue_Dave wrote:Once again Russian biathletes and officials are in a spot of bother for potential anti-doping infractions, this time related to the 2017 World Championships in Hochfilzen.

http://www.biathlonworld.com/news/detail/ibu-statement-concerning-actions-by-austrian-state-authorities

Russian press has now named those involved. Two of them are extremely unsurprising, considering they had come off of bans, and been immediately very good, Ricco Groß had been trying to keep one of them out of the team, then they went well at the European Championships to qualify for the World Championships and were good there too. One of them despite achieving very little until they were 27, and who sucked out loud last season but was very good in Hochfilzen both then and now.

5 officials:
Aleksandr Kasperovich, Artem Kryntsilov, Aleksandr Selyavkin, Evgeniy Shutov, Dmitry Topychkanov

5 athletes:
Evgeniy Garanichev, Aleksandr Loginov, Anton Shipulin, Irina Starykh, Alexey Volkov

However there is still very little information available that elaborates on what the accusations are in terms of what they did, and obviously no formal antidoping charges have been made as Starykh raced today. Shipulin and Loginov are the only ones thus far to comment, both deny everything as you'd anticipate.



It took them almost two years to get something going. No positive tests, no adverse findings? Anything? Was Rodchenkov involved again, somehow?

To the bold: see Johaug.

And what about Ricco Groß? His name was not on the list. Why is that? He was the head coach during that period. Eerily similar to last year and Wolfgang Pichler. Russian athletes and coaches don't get invited to Pyeongchang, but Pichler, a German, who was the head coach of the women's team 2011-2015, gets to go. He himself has denied that during his time there, none of his athletes doped. So what's going on?


The current visit is related to the case against IBU for allegedly covering up positive tests that was first mentioned in April this year.

Ricco Gross works in Austria, so it is not impossible that he was already heard by the police with little fanfare. The only reason the current police visit was made public was because a Russian journo decided to bring it to everyone's attention.
User avatar roundabout
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,217
Joined: 07 Jun 2010 11:43

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

Back to top