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Doping in XC skiing

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Doping in XC skiing

27 Dec 2018 00:49

John de Savage wrote:Wrong.

Not wrong at least according to Stray-Gundersen and Videman, because here is how they described their own study:

Jim Stray-Gundersen (2006): ”Half the people who won medals were clean”.
Tapio Videman (2011) answering the question "Are there clean athletes at the top": "Of course. For example, Half of the medals of the 2001 ended up to clean athletes.
John de Savage wrote:Fifty percent of medal winners had "highly abnormal hematologic profiles". What percentage were "normal"? We' don't know.

We do know, because the material was published in 2003. 12 out of 25 had normal hematological profile and 1 out of 25 had abnormal profile, so that makes it roughly half. Here is a link to the PDF-file:
http://www.svtstatic.se/image-cms/svtse/1518015484/svts/article16931346.svt/BINARY/Abnormal_Hematologic_Profiles_in_Elite.2.pdf

It is totally true that there have been allegations about something fishy going on with the few missing samples. As one interesting anecdote, both Stray-Gundersen and Videman became somewhat cynical about the anti-doping work later because no action was taken against the known dopers of 2001 and Videman has maintained that the entire anti-doping testing system should be abolished altogether.
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30 Dec 2018 13:10

Natalia Nepryaeva wins the Toblach 10km at the Tour de Ski.

Along with Bolshunov, Chervotkin, and Spitsov she is coached by Yuri Borodavko, once suspended for doping offenses.

Spitsov hadn't even competed in a World Cup race until December 2017 (Davos) but a few months later won two Olympic silver medals and a bronze.

I would love to believe that the new generation of Russians are clean, but…
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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30 Dec 2018 21:56

So, take this horeeever you want it. I heard a rumor from someone in my extended family who’s in the business of energy drinks. I totally trust them who told it to me (we’ve had several discussion about doping) and I don’t think it’s too far fetched either. They don’t follow cross country skiing very much hence why I think they don’t care etc.
So, one “friend” (was involved romantically with one) to them said that he got his drug from the same person as Gunde Swahn did. So, merry Christmas and a happy new year to you all.
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Re:

31 Dec 2018 13:30

frenchfry wrote:Natalia Nepryaeva wins the Toblach 10km at the Tour de Ski.

Along with Bolshunov, Chervotkin, and Spitsov she is coached by Yuri Borodavko, once suspended for doping offenses.

Spitsov hadn't even competed in a World Cup race until December 2017 (Davos) but a few months later won two Olympic silver medals and a bronze.

I would love to believe that the new generation of Russians are clean, but…


If Johoug was competing they'd be competing for second place or lower :)
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

05 Jan 2019 17:50

Aragon wrote:
John de Savage wrote:Wrong.

Not wrong at least according to Stray-Gundersen and Videman, because here is how they described their own study:

Jim Stray-Gundersen (2006): ”Half the people who won medals were clean”.
Tapio Videman (2011) answering the question "Are there clean athletes at the top": "Of course. For example, Half of the medals of the 2001 ended up to clean athletes.
John de Savage wrote:Fifty percent of medal winners had "highly abnormal hematologic profiles". What percentage were "normal"? We' don't know.

We do know, because the material was published in 2003. 12 out of 25 had normal hematological profile and 1 out of 25 had abnormal profile, so that makes it roughly half. Here is a link to the PDF-file:
http://www.svtstatic.se/image-cms/svtse/1518015484/svts/article16931346.svt/BINARY/Abnormal_Hematologic_Profiles_in_Elite.2.pdf

It is totally true that there have been allegations about something fishy going on with the few missing samples. As one interesting anecdote, both Stray-Gundersen and Videman became somewhat cynical about the anti-doping work later because no action was taken against the known dopers of 2001 and Videman has maintained that the entire anti-doping testing system should be abolished altogether.


Thanks for the clarification, but having a Hb below 16.4 and retics below 2.9 is not very strong evidence of cleanliness, even before the ABP. Look at Rasmussen and Landis.
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Re: Doping in XC skiing

05 Jan 2019 19:09

John de Savage wrote:Thanks for the clarification, but having a Hb below 16.4 and retics below 2.9 is not very strong evidence of cleanliness, even before the ABP. Look at Rasmussen and Landis.

We don't know whether that is their only evidence of cleanliness of the twelve or so athletes, only that two of the more cynical scientists of the 2003 paper draw that conclusion from the available evidence (I would take the public opinion of Lereim with a pinch of salt).

Videman, Stray-Gundersen et al. looked beyond just ret. and Hb in the 2003 published paper and because (as far as I know) they also knew each individual blood data of each of the participant, so they simultaneously knew also how close to the limits their presumably "clean" were and whether the athletes were just below the limits or not.
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11 Jan 2019 15:43

It's nice when convicted dopers come back from bans and are as good or better than they were.
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Re:

11 Jan 2019 16:11

Singer01 wrote:It's nice when convicted dopers come back from bans and are as good or better than they were.


Especially Russian dopers. After an OK season last year, Loginov is on fire (or on something!) this year. At least we can label him a doper without any ambiguity.
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: Re:

11 Jan 2019 17:21

frenchfry wrote:
Singer01 wrote:It's nice when convicted dopers come back from bans and are as good or better than they were.


Especially Russian dopers. After an OK season last year, Loginov is on fire (or on something!) this year. At least we can label him a doper without any ambiguity.



What happened to Fourcade today?
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Re: Re:

11 Jan 2019 23:18

BullsFan22 wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
Singer01 wrote:It's nice when convicted dopers come back from bans and are as good or better than they were.


Especially Russian dopers. After an OK season last year, Loginov is on fire (or on something!) this year. At least we can label him a doper without any ambiguity.



What happened to Fourcade today?

He has become very humain this year. Strange indeed.
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: Re:

12 Jan 2019 07:58

frenchfry wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
Singer01 wrote:It's nice when convicted dopers come back from bans and are as good or better than they were.


Especially Russian dopers. After an OK season last year, Loginov is on fire (or on something!) this year. At least we can label him a doper without any ambiguity.



What happened to Fourcade today?

He has become very humain this year. Strange indeed.

you think fourcade finally off some dope ? i never minded his wins and always gave him respect...until he began DEMANDING apologies, which funnily coincide with his own 'humanization'.

and what dope makes a 22 sports rifle shoot like a machine gun the way loginov seems to have been shooting ?
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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Re: Re:

12 Jan 2019 12:09

python wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
BullsFan22 wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
Singer01 wrote:It's nice when convicted dopers come back from bans and are as good or better than they were.


Especially Russian dopers. After an OK season last year, Loginov is on fire (or on something!) this year. At least we can label him a doper without any ambiguity.



What happened to Fourcade today?

He has become very humain this year. Strange indeed.

you think fourcade finally off some dope ? i never minded his wins and always gave him respect...until he began DEMANDING apologies, which funnily coincide with his own 'humanization'.

and what dope makes a 22 sports rifle shoot like a machine gun the way loginov seems to have been shooting ?


When you arrive at the shooting range less tired, you have a better chance of shooting clean.

One of the main reasons the other biathletes don't like Loginov is that he has never admitted or apologised for his doping. Like most (or all?) Russian athletes, he considers himself a victim - despite the fact that Russia has been proven to have engaged in widespread state-organised doping and a state-organised cover-up which is still going on. I have trouble reconciling these and giving the benefit of a doubt to the athletes, especially those that were caught red-handed like Loginov.
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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12 Jan 2019 13:26

He'll (Loginov) get caught again. I have very little doubt about that.
Shut up, Jens!
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12 Jan 2019 13:26

i think you are upset, fry, he beat your compatriot doper..even you seem to see that w/o a dope fourcade who used to be a quitlecade is barely a triplecade :) :lol:
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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Re:

12 Jan 2019 15:08

python wrote:i think you are upset, fry, he beat your compatriot doper..even you seem to see that w/o a dope fourcade who used to be a quitlecade is barely a triplecade :) :lol:

Loginov = Proven doper

Maybe he isn't doping now, but the doper label is still his.

You can speculate about Fourcade, after all up to this year he has outragously dominated for the better part of a decade. But that will remain speculation until...
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: Re:

12 Jan 2019 17:18

frenchfry wrote:
python wrote:i think you are upset, fry, he beat your compatriot doper..even you seem to see that w/o a dope fourcade who used to be a quitlecade is barely a triplecade :) :lol:

Loginov = Proven doper

Maybe he isn't doping now, but the doper label is still his.

You can speculate about Fourcade, after all up to this year he has outragously dominated for the better part of a decade. But that will remain speculation until...
i was pulling your leg, fry. you seem to hate russian dopers MORE than armstrong doping :)... understood. re. fourcade, i will always give him the benefit of a doubt until he fails. nor did his dominance, nor his personality for that matter, unlike many fans here and elsewhere, bothered/bothers me much. if his dominance was due to doping and now somehow vanished b/c he had reduced or stopped, we certainly can speculate, but there is not much public substance to that.

as i said, what started to bother me, is his insistence on apologies. perhaps it's due to my personal attitude. i would NEVER demand an apology in a case like loginov's.it does not fit with my understanding of guilt and redemption. why ? the man by his doping hurt himself, earned the stigma and lost a lot of credibility. he surely cheated some out of prizes but hardly fourcade...what would apology achieve and in what form it should be expressed ? some will say he did not apologize enough or used the phrases they don't accept. There is no way to satisfy all 'offended.

an adult, particularly as successful as fourcade, in my book looks petty (at best) or is trying to overact ('i am therefore clean') when demanding that some fallen mortal must apologize as if they personally hurt him. the much more upstanding attitude would be to forgive but not forget as the individual had paid the dues. that's how, after all, we behave in our everyday lives with our kids spouses, friends and coworkers.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
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Re: Re:

12 Jan 2019 17:42

python wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
python wrote:i think you are upset, fry, he beat your compatriot doper..even you seem to see that w/o a dope fourcade who used to be a quitlecade is barely a triplecade :) :lol:

Loginov = Proven doper

Maybe he isn't doping now, but the doper label is still his.

You can speculate about Fourcade, after all up to this year he has outragously dominated for the better part of a decade. But that will remain speculation until...
i was pulling your leg, fry. you seem to hate russian dopers MORE than armstrong doping :)... understood. re. fourcade, i will always give him the benefit of a doubt until he fails. nor did his dominance, nor his personality for that matter, unlike many fans here and elsewhere, bothered/bothers me much. if his dominance was due to doping and now somehow vanished b/c he had reduced or stopped, we certainly can speculate, but there is not much public substance to that.

as i said, what started to bother me, is his insistence on apologies. perhaps it's due to my personal attitude. i would NEVER demand an apology in a case like loginov's.it does not fit with my understanding of guilt and redemption. why ? the man by his doping hurt himself, earned the stigma and lost a lot of credibility. he surely cheated some out of prizes but hardly fourcade...what would apology achieve and in what form it should be expressed ? some will say he did not apologize enough or used the phrases they don't accept. There is no way to satisfy all 'offended.

an adult, particularly as successful as fourcade, in my book looks petty (at best) or is trying to overact ('i am therefore clean') when demanding that some fallen mortal must apologize as if they personally hurt him. the much more upstanding attitude would be to forgive but not forget as the individual had paid the dues. that's how, after all, we behave in our everyday lives with our kids spouses, friends and coworkers.

NEVER underestimate my hate of Armstrong!

My understanding is that Fourcade isn't the only one demanding an apology. These guys spend a lot of time together so I can understand.

I have a thing about Russian dopers because collectively they play the conspiracy card and take us for idiots. A little confession would be good for the soul, just ask Armstrong!
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: Re:

12 Jan 2019 17:48

frenchfry wrote:
python wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
python wrote:i think you are upset, fry, he beat your compatriot doper..even you seem to see that w/o a dope fourcade who used to be a quitlecade is barely a triplecade :) :lol:

Loginov = Proven doper

Maybe he isn't doping now, but the doper label is still his.

You can speculate about Fourcade, after all up to this year he has outragously dominated for the better part of a decade. But that will remain speculation until...
i was pulling your leg, fry. you seem to hate russian dopers MORE than armstrong doping :)... understood. re. fourcade, i will always give him the benefit of a doubt until he fails. nor did his dominance, nor his personality for that matter, unlike many fans here and elsewhere, bothered/bothers me much. if his dominance was due to doping and now somehow vanished b/c he had reduced or stopped, we certainly can speculate, but there is not much public substance to that.

as i said, what started to bother me, is his insistence on apologies. perhaps it's due to my personal attitude. i would NEVER demand an apology in a case like loginov's.it does not fit with my understanding of guilt and redemption. why ? the man by his doping hurt himself, earned the stigma and lost a lot of credibility. he surely cheated some out of prizes but hardly fourcade...what would apology achieve and in what form it should be expressed ? some will say he did not apologize enough or used the phrases they don't accept. There is no way to satisfy all 'offended.

an adult, particularly as successful as fourcade, in my book looks petty (at best) or is trying to overact ('i am therefore clean') when demanding that some fallen mortal must apologize as if they personally hurt him. the much more upstanding attitude would be to forgive but not forget as the individual had paid the dues. that's how, after all, we behave in our everyday lives with our kids spouses, friends and coworkers.

NEVER underestimate my hate of Armstrong!

My understanding is that Fourcade isn't the only one demanding an apology. These guys spend a lot of time together so I can understand.

I have a thing about Russian dopers because collectively they play the conspiracy card and take us for idiots. A little confession would be good for the soul, just ask Armstrong!



Apologize? He served a two year ban. What else is he supposed to do? He owes you, me, and everyone else nothing. Did Johaug apologize for her doping? She didn't take ANY responsibility for getting caught 'red-handed' in 2016. Neither did Sundby. Neither did Denise Herrmann, who was caught 'red-handed' in 2007, as an 18 year old! Did Sachenbacher apologize? Did the Finns apologize in 2001? Did Kaisa Varis apologize the second time she was caught? Have the Austrians apologized for having athletes on both the xc and biathlon A team get caught for doping? Has the Italian team apologized for the Taschlers? Has the Olympiatoppen apologized for giving asthma meds to non-asthmatic athletes systematically? But I know what's coming next....'but the Russians use state doping, and that's bad! Shame on them!'

Spare us the 'holier-than-thou' hypocrisy. This is professional sport, if you hate doping so much, i suggest not watching any professional sport.
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Re: Re:

12 Jan 2019 19:30

BullsFan22 wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
python wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
python wrote:i think you are upset, fry, he beat your compatriot doper..even you seem to see that w/o a dope fourcade who used to be a quitlecade is barely a triplecade :) :lol:

Loginov = Proven doper

Maybe he isn't doping now, but the doper label is still his.

You can speculate about Fourcade, after all up to this year he has outragously dominated for the better part of a decade. But that will remain speculation until...
i was pulling your leg, fry. you seem to hate russian dopers MORE than armstrong doping :)... understood. re. fourcade, i will always give him the benefit of a doubt until he fails. nor did his dominance, nor his personality for that matter, unlike many fans here and elsewhere, bothered/bothers me much. if his dominance was due to doping and now somehow vanished b/c he had reduced or stopped, we certainly can speculate, but there is not much public substance to that.

as i said, what started to bother me, is his insistence on apologies. perhaps it's due to my personal attitude. i would NEVER demand an apology in a case like loginov's.it does not fit with my understanding of guilt and redemption. why ? the man by his doping hurt himself, earned the stigma and lost a lot of credibility. he surely cheated some out of prizes but hardly fourcade...what would apology achieve and in what form it should be expressed ? some will say he did not apologize enough or used the phrases they don't accept. There is no way to satisfy all 'offended.

an adult, particularly as successful as fourcade, in my book looks petty (at best) or is trying to overact ('i am therefore clean') when demanding that some fallen mortal must apologize as if they personally hurt him. the much more upstanding attitude would be to forgive but not forget as the individual had paid the dues. that's how, after all, we behave in our everyday lives with our kids spouses, friends and coworkers.

NEVER underestimate my hate of Armstrong!

My understanding is that Fourcade isn't the only one demanding an apology. These guys spend a lot of time together so I can understand.

I have a thing about Russian dopers because collectively they play the conspiracy card and take us for idiots. A little confession would be good for the soul, just ask Armstrong!



Apologize? He served a two year ban. What else is he supposed to do? He owes you, me, and everyone else nothing. Did Johaug apologize for her doping? She didn't take ANY responsibility for getting caught 'red-handed' in 2016. Neither did Sundby. Neither did Denise Herrmann, who was caught 'red-handed' in 2007, as an 18 year old! Did Sachenbacher apologize? Did the Finns apologize in 2001? Did Kaisa Varis apologize the second time she was caught? Have the Austrians apologized for having athletes on both the xc and biathlon A team get caught for doping? Has the Italian team apologized for the Taschlers? Has the Olympiatoppen apologized for giving asthma meds to non-asthmatic athletes systematically? But I know what's coming next....'but the Russians use state doping, and that's bad! Shame on them!'

Spare us the 'holier-than-thou' hypocrisy. This is professional sport, if you hate doping so much, i suggest not watching any professional sport.


I don't know if any of the many known dopers you have listed apologised at some time. Maybe some did, maybe some didn't. From what I know, several biathletes criticize Loginov's attitute (not just Fourcade) and he isn't appreciated for that. Maybe they wouldn't like him anyway, even if he had not been caught doping.

When it comes to the Russians, I admit to being hard on them. But I also can, and have been, be hard on others, when the subject comes up. Not many countries though, if any, have been caught doing what the Russians were caught doing - the scale far surpasses the Austrians, Italians, Norwegians etc. Excepting the East Germans.

As for watching professional sports, indeed it isn't always easy and that is why it always pisses me off when there is yet another scandal. The clinic helps vent some of this frustration, sorry if that bothers you.
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: Re:

12 Jan 2019 20:24

BullsFan22 wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
python wrote:
frenchfry wrote:
python wrote:i think you are upset, fry, he beat your compatriot doper..even you seem to see that w/o a dope fourcade who used to be a quitlecade is barely a triplecade :) :lol:

Loginov = Proven doper

Maybe he isn't doping now, but the doper label is still his.

You can speculate about Fourcade, after all up to this year he has outragously dominated for the better part of a decade. But that will remain speculation until...
i was pulling your leg, fry. you seem to hate russian dopers MORE than armstrong doping :)... understood. re. fourcade, i will always give him the benefit of a doubt until he fails. nor did his dominance, nor his personality for that matter, unlike many fans here and elsewhere, bothered/bothers me much. if his dominance was due to doping and now somehow vanished b/c he had reduced or stopped, we certainly can speculate, but there is not much public substance to that.

as i said, what started to bother me, is his insistence on apologies. perhaps it's due to my personal attitude. i would NEVER demand an apology in a case like loginov's.it does not fit with my understanding of guilt and redemption. why ? the man by his doping hurt himself, earned the stigma and lost a lot of credibility. he surely cheated some out of prizes but hardly fourcade...what would apology achieve and in what form it should be expressed ? some will say he did not apologize enough or used the phrases they don't accept. There is no way to satisfy all 'offended.

an adult, particularly as successful as fourcade, in my book looks petty (at best) or is trying to overact ('i am therefore clean') when demanding that some fallen mortal must apologize as if they personally hurt him. the much more upstanding attitude would be to forgive but not forget as the individual had paid the dues. that's how, after all, we behave in our everyday lives with our kids spouses, friends and coworkers.

NEVER underestimate my hate of Armstrong!

My understanding is that Fourcade isn't the only one demanding an apology. These guys spend a lot of time together so I can understand.

I have a thing about Russian dopers because collectively they play the conspiracy card and take us for idiots. A little confession would be good for the soul, just ask Armstrong!



Apologize? He served a two year ban. What else is he supposed to do? He owes you, me, and everyone else nothing. Did Johaug apologize for her doping? She didn't take ANY responsibility for getting caught 'red-handed' in 2016. Neither did Sundby. Neither did Denise Herrmann, who was caught 'red-handed' in 2007, as an 18 year old! Did Sachenbacher apologize? Did the Finns apologize in 2001? Did Kaisa Varis apologize the second time she was caught? Have the Austrians apologized for having athletes on both the xc and biathlon A team get caught for doping? Has the Italian team apologized for the Taschlers? Has the Olympiatoppen apologized for giving asthma meds to non-asthmatic athletes systematically? But I know what's coming next....'but the Russians use state doping, and that's bad! Shame on them!'

Spare us the 'holier-than-thou' hypocrisy. This is professional sport, if you hate doping so much, i suggest not watching any professional sport.


Bulls... You know some in your list did appologies, multiple times. It is bit sad (or lack of memory) that you list i.e Finns of 2001, where i.e. Myllyla did public appology testimonies, never recovered mentally from his shame, and ended his days. I would appreciate you think a moment when using such people absolutely falesly in the nationalism defence propaganda.
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