Log in:  

Register

Official "another interesting piece I found on Floyd Landis" Thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Eshnar, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

01 Aug 2016 21:21

I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.
User avatar kwikki
Member
 
Posts: 1,013
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 15:47

Re:

01 Aug 2016 21:36

kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.



So pretty similar to Ben Johnson then? Johnson was busted in similar fashion. Dominates an event where almost all the other finalists in that 100m were doping, before/after failed tests and/or were suspected to later. We all know how USOC cleared Carl Lewis numerous times. Johnson, like Landis, crushes the competition, wins, then a couple days later, it is announced that he failed a test. Johnson said they actually busted him for the wrong thing. If my memory is correct, he said in an interview that he was doping (nothing that nobody else was doing at the time, according to him) at the time and during the Olympics, but they busted him not for what he actually took to prepare for those 100m races, but something else. A "false" positive, then? Am I reading/understanding that correctly? Seems like they both pissed off the wrong people and those people had enough power to influence the higher ups (or the higher ups ended up getting pissed) and they were busted. I completely understand the anger. Landis said it himself, perhaps he just rode too fast that day? Crushing the final mountain stage in old-school fashion? Johnson did the same thing. He broke the world record to win the Olympic 100m! It doesn't get more prestigious than that!
BullsFan22
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,129
Joined: 22 Jun 2010 21:19

02 Aug 2016 07:28

...but when such a cocktail of peds is employed....can everything be recalled?

Mark L
User avatar ebandit
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,145
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 18:24

Re: Re:

02 Aug 2016 17:35

Benotti69 wrote:...Landis didn't like Testosterone, it made him stiff, preferred HGH. His positive was spiked, imo....

I thought so too, at one time.

Without question, the T/E test was bollocks because the variance in the results was high enough that any credible laboratory would have invalidated them. I think the sample was contaminated, and the epitestosterone degraded faster over time than the testosterone, so T/E was fated to be higher still each time it was tested. Regardless, and despite D1ck Pound's hyperbolic statement asserting a man with so much testosterone should be violating every virgin within 100 miles, the results from tests empirically measuring Landis' total testosterone levels were never any higher than low-normal. If he was doping with anabolics, he was doing it badly. And despite any claims to the contrary from the press, there was never any direct test indicating a high testosterone level.

And there will always be doubts regarding the CIR tests because (as was entered into evidence in the arbitration) the mass spectrometer the lab used was not running the correct manufacturer-prescribed software, nor did any of the lab techs know how (or have manuals instructing them how) to calibrate the device.

Unfortunately I cannot now find the source but some months ago -- while I was looking for some further statement from Landis regarding whether he actually was on testosterone that day, stage 17 -- I did find a statement in a reference I found at the time to be credible (which rules out forums and blogs) stating there were multiple other testosterone positives. Not stated but I got the impression that, because of the one positive, they randomly CIR tested other samples that previously had passed and found exogenous in IIRC three of them.

But none of that removes the doubts about the efficacy of that particular lab's CIR tests.

His confession, of course, mooted all of that, but I still get the uneasy feeling the he was the recipient of "abnormal" attention. As was Contador.

Then again, so were Jon Jones and Brock Lesnar the recipients of "abrormal" attentions, so that isn't universally a bad thing.


This Charming Man wrote:Floyd is insistent that his positive for testosterone is false. Once he pays back the FFF, he will probably sue USADA, ASO, WADA, for destroying his career, and taking his 06 TdF tittle. Fair is fair. False positive..

Was. Was insistent. I haven't heard or read of him speaking to it since he confessed.

And being as he publicly has confessed to other forms of cheating, I can't see that he'd crave the added humiliation of contesting just which forms of cheating it was that he was guilty of.
User avatar StyrbjornSterki
Member
 
Posts: 926
Joined: 18 Jul 2010 22:00

Re: Re:

02 Aug 2016 19:17

StyrbjornSterki wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:...Landis didn't like Testosterone, it made him stiff, preferred HGH. His positive was spiked, imo....

I thought so too, at one time.

Without question, the T/E test was bollocks because the variance in the results was high enough that any credible laboratory would have invalidated them. I think the sample was contaminated, and the epitestosterone degraded faster over time than the testosterone, so T/E was fated to be higher still each time it was tested. Regardless, and despite D1ck Pound's hyperbolic statement asserting a man with so much testosterone should be violating every virgin within 100 miles, the results from tests empirically measuring Landis' total testosterone levels were never any higher than low-normal. If he was doping with anabolics, he was doing it badly. And despite any claims to the contrary from the press, there was never any direct test indicating a high testosterone level.

If Floyd was clean of "T" and he knows it, he could sue, and get a few million back, plus the added revenge, towards the authorities. Since Floyd is in the cannabis business, he is already sticking his thumb in the eye of the Feds, appears, from reading the books written, with Floyds' antics, appears he does not have a whole lot of respect, for "THE MAN"
The USAda, can't do retroactive testing searching for other anomalies, in Floyds organisim.
And there will always be doubts regarding the CIR tests because (as was entered into evidence in the arbitration) the mass spectrometer the lab used was not running the correct manufacturer-prescribed software, nor did any of the lab techs know how (or have manuals instructing them how) to calibrate the device.

Unfortunately I cannot now find the source but some months ago -- while I was looking for some further statement from Landis regarding whether he actually was on testosterone that day, stage 17 -- I did find a statement in a reference I found at the time to be credible (which rules out forums and blogs) stating there were multiple other testosterone positives. Not stated but I got the impression that, because of the one positive, they randomly CIR tested other samples that previously had passed and found exogenous in IIRC three of them.

But none of that removes the doubts about the efficacy of that particular lab's CIR tests.

His confession, of course, mooted all of that, but I still get the uneasy feeling the he was the recipient of "abnormal" attention. As was Contador.

Then again, so were Jon Jones and Brock Lesnar the recipients of "abrormal" attentions, so that isn't universally a bad thing.


This Charming Man wrote:Floyd is insistent that his positive for testosterone is false. Once he pays back the FFF, he will probably sue USADA, ASO, WADA, for destroying his career, and taking his 06 TdF tittle. Fair is fair. False positive..

Was. Was insistent. I haven't heard or read of him speaking to it since he confessed.

And being as he publicly has confessed to other forms of cheating, I can't see that he'd crave the added humiliation of contesting just which forms of cheating it was that he was guilty of.
This Charming Man
Junior Member
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 17 May 2016 02:46

Re:

02 Aug 2016 19:19

kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.
This Charming Man
Junior Member
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 17 May 2016 02:46

Re: Re:

03 Aug 2016 08:08

StyrbjornSterki wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:...Landis didn't like Testosterone, it made him stiff, preferred HGH. His positive was spiked, imo....

I thought so too, at one time.

Without question, the T/E test was bollocks because the variance in the results was high enough that any credible laboratory would have invalidated them. I think the sample was contaminated, and the epitestosterone degraded faster over time than the testosterone, so T/E was fated to be higher still each time it was tested. Regardless, and despite D1ck Pound's hyperbolic statement asserting a man with so much testosterone should be violating every virgin within 100 miles, the results from tests empirically measuring Landis' total testosterone levels were never any higher than low-normal. If he was doping with anabolics, he was doing it badly. And despite any claims to the contrary from the press, there was never any direct test indicating a high testosterone level.

And there will always be doubts regarding the CIR tests because (as was entered into evidence in the arbitration) the mass spectrometer the lab used was not running the correct manufacturer-prescribed software, nor did any of the lab techs know how (or have manuals instructing them how) to calibrate the device.

Unfortunately I cannot now find the source but some months ago -- while I was looking for some further statement from Landis regarding whether he actually was on testosterone that day, stage 17 -- I did find a statement in a reference I found at the time to be credible (which rules out forums and blogs) stating there were multiple other testosterone positives. Not stated but I got the impression that, because of the one positive, they randomly CIR tested other samples that previously had passed and found exogenous in IIRC three of them.

But none of that removes the doubts about the efficacy of that particular lab's CIR tests.

His confession, of course, mooted all of that, but I still get the uneasy feeling the he was the recipient of "abnormal" attention. As was Contador.

Then again, so were Jon Jones and Brock Lesnar the recipients of "abrormal" attentions, so that isn't universally a bad thing.


This Charming Man wrote:Floyd is insistent that his positive for testosterone is false. Once he pays back the FFF, he will probably sue USADA, ASO, WADA, for destroying his career, and taking his 06 TdF tittle. Fair is fair. False positive..

Was. Was insistent. I haven't heard or read of him speaking to it since he confessed.

And being as he publicly has confessed to other forms of cheating, I can't see that he'd crave the added humiliation of contesting just which forms of cheating it was that he was guilty of.

Can we maybe assume or toss out the possibility that maybe Wonderboy might've had something to do with Floyd being busted? Maybe a punishment or a way to screw him over?
User avatar 86TDFWinner
Member
 
Posts: 1,698
Joined: 11 Aug 2012 21:10
Location: Southern California

Re: Re:

03 Aug 2016 08:23

This Charming Man wrote:
kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.


Different era, different situation. Floyd, like Armstrong, is condemned to eternal damnation.
User avatar kwikki
Member
 
Posts: 1,013
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 15:47

Re: Re:

03 Aug 2016 09:02

kwikki wrote:
This Charming Man wrote:
kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.


Different era, different situation. Floyd, like Armstrong, is condemned to eternal damnation.


Yet, Contadoper, Froome, Evans, Nibali are still worshipped here for reasons unknown.
User avatar 86TDFWinner
Member
 
Posts: 1,698
Joined: 11 Aug 2012 21:10
Location: Southern California

03 Aug 2016 11:59

I still like blackcat's theory on Freddy Viaene slipping him a micky in the massage oil

#alliterationz
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,529
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

Re: Re:

03 Aug 2016 15:14

86TDFWinner wrote:
kwikki wrote:
This Charming Man wrote:
kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.


Different era, different situation. Floyd, like Armstrong, is condemned to eternal damnation.


Yet, Contadoper, Froome, Evans, Nibali are still worshipped here for reasons unknown.

Yup, and Lemond too.
User avatar MacBAir
Member
 
Posts: 383
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 15:32

Re: Re:

04 Aug 2016 03:10

MacBAir wrote:
86TDFWinner wrote:
kwikki wrote:
This Charming Man wrote:
kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.


Different era, different situation. Floyd, like Armstrong, is condemned to eternal damnation.


Yet, Contadoper, Froome, Evans, Nibali are still worshipped here for reasons unknown.

Yup, and Lemond too.



Only difference being LeMond is clean.....unless you know something we all don't? Please share your evidence that he did?
User avatar 86TDFWinner
Member
 
Posts: 1,698
Joined: 11 Aug 2012 21:10
Location: Southern California

Re: Re:

04 Aug 2016 06:30

86TDFWinner wrote:
[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtop[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1992291#p1992291]This Charming Man[/url] wrote:
kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.



Yet, Contadoper, Froome, Evans, Nibali are still worshipped here for reasons unknown.

Yup, and Lemond too.[/quote]


Only difference being LeMond is clean.....unless you know something we all don't? Please share your evidence that he did?[/quote]

Absurd to call out Greg as a PED user. The other ones, stated, yes, Greg, different category, as a person, and an athlete, 100% authentic.
This Charming Man
Junior Member
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 17 May 2016 02:46

Re: Re:

06 Aug 2016 19:04

86TDFWinner wrote:Can we maybe assume or toss out the possibility that maybe Wonderboy might've had something to do with Floyd being busted? Maybe a punishment or a way to screw him over?

That's the problem with being seen a villain, innit? It always will leave the masses pondering what great evil he might have committed had he not been stopped, or what great evils he did perpetrate but that were never found out.


Prosecution of criminal offenses often is said to be contingent on the presence of two factors: motive and opportunity. Was/Is Pharmastrong vindictive enough to pursue such a course? And did he have the power to pull it off?

I don't think there's anyone apart his hirelings, the sycophants still wearing those yellow rubber bands, and his mum who would argue he is not vindictive to a fault (and I'm not so sure about his mum). But the question of power is much more complex.

Did Pharmstrong himself have that sort of pull with UCI/WADA/ASO? Over the period of several years, someone (probably several someones) in a position of power obviously aided him by covering up his multiple PEDs positives. With their scruples obviously thus compromised, and in light of the fact that their earlier acts never were found out (not to mention Pharmstrong's "generosity"), could they then deny his request to fiddle with the results of others? And to cast the anoraki net even wider, considering the level of fanaticism Pharmstrong inspired in the many, one could speculate whether his minions might have acted independently, on what they saw as their master's (unspoken) best interests. IOW, What Would Lance Do? Or more to the point, what would Lance have me to do, if he were here, and if we could speak in secret. It's not like it wasn't common knowledge who his nemeses were.

Would he? Could he? Did he? Almost a question that answers itself. I think it is far more likely that Pharmstrong somehow influenced (directly or otherwise) what happened to FLandis (and Contador) than it is that Lemond fired the third shot from the grassy knoll.
User avatar StyrbjornSterki
Member
 
Posts: 926
Joined: 18 Jul 2010 22:00

06 Aug 2016 20:51

doubt Armstrong was behind either. Although its well known he didn't like Contador, LA refused a deal to keep 5 of his TDF victories and serve a shortened suspension by ratting out other dopers.

Plus, there wouldn't have been any benefit to Armstrong outting Landis. Initially, Landis refused to testify after he was busted. He didn't admit doping until 2010 when his cycling career was clearly coming to a disappointing end. Near as I can tell, Landis wanted to be like Lance but couldn't. He didn't dope as well and couldn't deny his way out of it after he got busted. Armstrong's comeback just fueled the fire. That's when Landis got bitter and turned on LA. If Armstrong hadn't made the comeback, Landis might have stayed in the shadows. Although he's entertaining, Landis is far from a choirboy. He's now just a bitter opportunist trying to get whistleblower money

As for UCI, they buried everything until the risk outweighed the reward. Typical organizational behavior that will happen again and again (and probably is). USADA didn't start operating until late October 2000. Armstrong was Tygart's golden goose that justified USADA's existence and funding
justifieddoubter
New Member
 
Posts: 13
Joined: 23 Jul 2016 20:41

Re: Re:

06 Aug 2016 23:38

MacBAir wrote:
86TDFWinner wrote:
kwikki wrote:
This Charming Man wrote:
kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.


Different era, different situation. Floyd, like Armstrong, is condemned to eternal damnation.


Yet, Contadoper, Froome, Evans, Nibali are still worshipped here for reasons unknown.

Yup, and Lemond too.


Missed a few eras with this kneejerk response.
jahn
Junior Member
 
Posts: 81
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 21:09

Re:

07 Aug 2016 08:15

justifieddoubter wrote:doubt Armstrong was behind either. Although its well known he didn't like Contador, LA refused a deal to keep 5 of his TDF victories and serve a shortened suspension by ratting out other dopers.

Plus, there wouldn't have been any benefit to Armstrong outting Landis. Initially, Landis refused to testify after he was busted. He didn't admit doping until 2010 when his cycling career was clearly coming to a disappointing end. Near as I can tell, Landis wanted to be like Lance but couldn't. He didn't dope as well and couldn't deny his way out of it after he got busted. Armstrong's comeback just fueled the fire. That's when Landis got bitter and turned on LA. If Armstrong hadn't made the comeback, Landis might have stayed in the shadows. Although he's entertaining, Landis is far from a choirboy. He's now just a bitter opportunist trying to get whistleblower money

As for UCI, they buried everything until the risk outweighed the reward. Typical organizational behavior that will happen again and again (and probably is). USADA didn't start operating until late October 2000. Armstrong was Tygart's golden goose that justified USADA's existence and funding

this is so laughably false - opportunist? so he came clean despite being advised not to legally as he could end up in prison...and despite the fact he knew and knows that this whistleblower money will probably never come his way. You believe what you read about 30million. Firstly there is a huge if as to whether that judgement will ever be made, Secondly Floyd knows there is a large chance, even if a judgement is passed, he wont get a penny, due to his conviction over the fund....
you said above he wanted to be like lance? well considering himself and dave Zabriskie told steve Johnson what was going on, long before Floyd was caught, that doesn't make sense.
Digger
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,654
Joined: 10 May 2009 17:24

Re: Re:

07 Aug 2016 13:37

This Charming Man wrote:
86TDFWinner wrote:
[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtop[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1992291#p1992291]This Charming Man[/url] wrote:
kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.



Yet, Contadoper, Froome, Evans, Nibali are still worshipped here for reasons unknown.

Yup, and Lemond too.


Only difference being LeMond is clean.....unless you know something we all don't? Please share your evidence that he did?

Absurd to call out Greg as a PED user. The other ones, stated, yes, Greg, different category, as a person, and an athlete, 100% authentic.

not this crap again.

Could either of you guys tell me what the evidence is that Froome, Evans and/or Nibali doped? Or Wiggins, or Indurain?

*crickets*
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

Re: Re:

07 Aug 2016 17:34

sniper wrote:
This Charming Man wrote:
86TDFWinner wrote:
[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtop[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1992291#p1992291]This Charming Man[/url] wrote:
kwikki wrote:I doubt it. He admitted to heavy doping. Just not testosterone.


Never phased Bjarne Riis, nor Marco Pantani.



Yet, Contadoper, Froome, Evans, Nibali are still worshipped here for reasons unknown.

Yup, and Lemond too.


Only difference being LeMond is clean.....unless you know something we all don't? Please share your evidence that he did?

Absurd to call out Greg as a PED user. The other ones, stated, yes, Greg, different category, as a person, and an athlete, 100% authentic.

not this crap again.

Could either of you guys tell me what the evidence is that Froome, Evans and/or Nibali doped? Or Wiggins, or Indurain?

*crickets*


All you need to know about LeMond's drug use is to ask yourself why a guy spends so much time attacking riders for doping long after he retired while refusing to say a word about those from his era who doped to take wins from him. Keep in mind this is a man who has spent thirty years--thirty freaking years!--complaining about how he was robbed of the 1985 Tour because his team lied to him about his position on the road relative to Hinault.
"Their world is crumbling. Ours is being built."
DamianoMachiavelli
Junior Member
 
Posts: 232
Joined: 21 Oct 2015 22:35

Re: Re:

07 Aug 2016 17:52

StyrbjornSterki wrote:
This Charming Man wrote:Floyd is insistent that his positive for testosterone is false. Once he pays back the FFF, he will probably sue USADA, ASO, WADA, for destroying his career, and taking his 06 TdF tittle. Fair is fair. False positive..

Was. Was insistent. I haven't heard or read of him speaking to it since he confessed.


I have discussed this with Floyd many times. He still insists that he was not using testosterone during that Tour. There has been a lot of things he has told me to keep to myself. I feel pretty confident that he would feel comfortable enough to say, "Of course I was using testosterone! Don't tell anybody."

Floyd is as confused as anyone about why he tested positive. His beliefs about what might have happened seem to vary from day to day. I remember a while back Floyd got all excited about the FBI admitting that its hair analysis was junk science. Innocent people went to prison because of it. Some were probably executed. Floyd was pretty adamant that the same thing would eventually happen with the CIR test for testosterone.

From pulling in a lot of info from discussions about various aspects of his case, I have theory about what happened but I don't think I will take the time to write it for this place. Really! What's the point about putting any effort here?
"Their world is crumbling. Ours is being built."
DamianoMachiavelli
Junior Member
 
Posts: 232
Joined: 21 Oct 2015 22:35

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests

Back to top