Log in:  

Register

Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Eshnar, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

29 Aug 2011 15:01

Discuss.

Some 'unbelievable' performances from Sky this weekend.

Wiggins climbing like the second coming of Armstrong. Froome's ITT. A British USP?

Or is it all down to weight loss and good positioning on the bike?
Justcycling

...girls and ****ed 'em at school. All I know is that there were rumours he was into field hockey players

"the only thing worse than reading Cycling News is talking to them" Paul Kimmage

"The four most beautiful words in our common language: I told you so." Gore Vidal
User avatar Mrs John Murphy
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,239
Joined: 03 May 2010 21:45
Location: Stamping on Cadel's dog

29 Aug 2011 15:11

Wiggins doesn't stand out to me because I'm used to him now, but Froome's performance is weird indeed.
User avatar hrotha
Veteran
 
Posts: 15,727
Joined: 10 Jun 2010 20:45

29 Aug 2011 15:33

Mrs John Murphy wrote:Discuss.

Some 'unbelievable' performances from Sky this weekend.

Wiggins climbing like the second coming of Armstrong. Froome's ITT. A British USP?

Or is it all down to weight loss and good positioning on the bike?


Whats unbelieveable about it? Have you compared the time with something Armstrong has done? Is Dan Martin on the juice too? Is it not indicative of less doping that the likes of Martin are actually now winning stages at this level?
Sometimes (a lot of the time) this forum and its contributors don't know what they're talking about, always the sceptic. If evidence is available show it. Seems to me no matter who wins a lot of guys on here believe dope is involved.
Larry Finnegan
New Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Sep 2010 17:23

29 Aug 2011 15:51

You forgot high cadence....

Froome wasn't a bad Time Trialer (2nd to Brad last year at the UK champs), but he certainly one upped the team Captain today.

For what its worth, Froome is a bikepure role model as well.

I think the very technical training that sky/British cycling used to such sucess on the track is paying dividends here.

That and Brad losing a metric **** load of weight.
User avatar Catwhoorg
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,992
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 11:00
Location: Atlanta, GA

29 Aug 2011 15:54

I expected Chris to top ten in the time trial, and be comfortably inside the top ten on the overall after today (which i said yesterday). My feeling was we would see Martin, Cancellara as the top two, then Wiggins, with Chris pushing Brad close but not beating him.

Chris's time trialling ability is underrated.

But, Chris's big problem has been maintaining that consistency and form over long periods, ie. more than a week. Hes been brads domestique for week 1, I think he will drop back now and Lofkvist will step up to be the support guy for Brad for Week 2. think its very likely that Froome has put in everything he could into week 1, with the plan of Lofkvist and Zandio being the domestiques for the latter stages of the race.
TeamSkyFans
 

29 Aug 2011 15:57

Froome is a talented young rider getting better all the time. This kind of break thru ride should not be a surprise to anyone.

And to me Wiggins was struggling a bit today after a really big effort yesterday.

I don't see any evidence of doping in either case - quite the opposite for me.
[color="White"]...[/color]
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
User avatar 180mmCrank
Member
 
Posts: 1,896
Joined: 11 Mar 2009 00:30
Location: Vancouver BC

29 Aug 2011 16:00

Larry Finnegan wrote:Whats unbelieveable about it? Have you compared the time with something Armstrong has done? Is Dan Martin on the juice too? Is it not indicative of less doping that the likes of Martin are actually now winning stages at this level?
Sometimes (a lot of the time) this forum and its contributors don't know what they're talking about, always the sceptic. If evidence is available show it. Seems to me no matter who wins a lot of guys on here believe dope is involved.


if you go to a forum on global warming, you'll find that a lot of posters on it believe the globe is actually warming up.
sniper
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,578
Joined: 15 Oct 2010 23:36

29 Aug 2011 16:08

180mmCrank wrote:Froome is a talented young rider getting better all the time. This kind of break thru ride should not be a surprise to anyone.

And to me Wiggins was struggling a bit today after a really big effort yesterday.

I don't see any evidence of doping in either case - quite the opposite for me.


Did Froome not make a bigger effort yesterday?
"ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78.

Jean Dubuffet: "For me, insanity is super sanity. The normal psychotic. Normal means lack of imagination, lack of creativity."
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,516
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

29 Aug 2011 16:11

remember as well, that Froome is riding to try and get himself a contract for next season. As it stands he does not have a team for 2012.
TeamSkyFans
 

29 Aug 2011 16:12

Larry Finnegan wrote:Whats unbelieveable about it? Have you compared the time with something Armstrong has done? Is Dan Martin on the juice too? Is it not indicative of less doping that the likes of Martin are actually now winning stages at this level?
Sometimes (a lot of the time) this forum and its contributors don't know what they're talking about, always the sceptic. If evidence is available show it. Seems to me no matter who wins a lot of guys on here believe dope is involved.


has it not always been thus, with the few exceptions to the rule...what has changed?

What i think most people feel is that the doping is done during training and then small amounts (microdoping) during races.

If you read the clinic you'll realise that testing is down, see Gerard Vroomen's comments about testing, you'll have read Fei's comments about his stupidity in getting caught not the tests working and catching doping, and so it goes on.
"ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78.

Jean Dubuffet: "For me, insanity is super sanity. The normal psychotic. Normal means lack of imagination, lack of creativity."
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,516
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

29 Aug 2011 16:16

TeamSkyFans wrote:remember as well, that Froome is riding to try and get himself a contract for next season. As it stands he does not have a team for 2012.


I would think that that fuels the 'Froome is doping' argument more than the 'Froome is clean' one.
blackcat wrote:you must respect the Cobra, a man who can give himself his own nickname. he trancends hubris.
User avatar luckyboy
Veteran
 
Posts: 8,690
Joined: 26 May 2009 21:26

29 Aug 2011 16:17

Normal* progression for Froome, even though this last jump has been rather high. Froome has always been able to climb and time trial, with the latter probably his better discipline. It's not exactly the "weight loss" model where a strong TT'er can become a much better climber, often at the expense of some TT'ing ability. He is only 25, it's hardly a magical leap in the middle of his career.

*Normal in that he has always been capable of being a GC rider at a reasonable level, not as a statement of conviction regarding his level cleanliness or filth.
Ferminal
Veteran
 
Posts: 17,001
Joined: 03 Jul 2009 09:42

29 Aug 2011 16:31

Maybe this is just some early effects of London 2012. :D
User avatar hrotha
Veteran
 
Posts: 15,727
Joined: 10 Jun 2010 20:45

29 Aug 2011 16:34

Benotti69 wrote:has it not always been thus, with the few exceptions to the rule...what has changed?

What i think most people feel is that the doping is done during training and then small amounts (microdoping) during races.

If you read the clinic you'll realise that testing is down, see Gerard Vroomen's comments about testing, you'll have read Fei's comments about his stupidity in getting caught not the tests working and catching doping, and so it goes on.


If this is so why aren't the guys who have been caught in the past, served their time, the Basso's etc. wiping the floor with the likes of Dan Martin, Voeckler etc? I'm no doping apologist, but it weakens the anti doping position by blanketing everyone as juiced. I recently read a post on here relating Voeckler's riding style to testosterone abuse! I'm still not sure if this was a wind up! But making associations like this are ridiculous and deflect from the analytical examination of 'real' evidence of doping.
Maybe i'm just a silly optimist!
Larry Finnegan
New Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Sep 2010 17:23

29 Aug 2011 16:39

He has had good TTs in big races before, so the performance today can be accepted as a breakout.

But it is a struggle to find any mountain stage where he has finished in the top 50 though. Alpe di Siusi (27th @ 2'17") and Monte Petrano (24th @ 7'05") from the 2009 Giro are just about the best ones. Also, 9th @ 2'01" on a Brixia Tour 2010 stage.

I mean, he may have had good climbing potential, but you'd expect there to be some kind of incremental improvement in results before a big breakthrough such as this. There aren't really any results that suggest this kind of performance could've been expected from Froome.
blackcat wrote:you must respect the Cobra, a man who can give himself his own nickname. he trancends hubris.
User avatar luckyboy
Veteran
 
Posts: 8,690
Joined: 26 May 2009 21:26

29 Aug 2011 16:42

luckyboy wrote:He has had good TTs in big races before, so the performance today can be accepted as a breakout.

But it is a struggle to find any mountain stage where he has finished in the top 50 though. Alpe di Siusi (27th @ 2'17") and Monte Petrano (24th @ 7'05") from the 2009 Giro are just about the best ones. Also, 9th @ 2'01" on a Brixia Tour 2010 stage.

I mean, he may have had good climbing potential, but you'd expect there to be some kind of incremental improvement in results before a big breakthrough such as this.


Finished in this group on the Monte Grappa stage last year:

17. [ITA] CATALDO Dario QST 04'46" 0
18. [ESP] MORENO FERNANDEZ Daniel OLO 04'46" 0
19. [NED] KRUIJSWIJK Steven RAB 04'46" 0
20. [FRA] VOECKLER Thomas BTL 04'46" 0
21. [ITA] BISOLTI Alessandro COG 04'46" 0
22. [RUS] KARPETS Vladimir KAT 04'46" 0
23. [GBR] FROOME Chris SKY 04'46" 0
24. [AUS] PORTE Richie SAX 04'46" 0
25. [FRA] GADRET John ALM 04'46" 0
26. [COL] ARDILA CANO Mauricio Alberto RAB 04'46" 0
27. [CRO] KISERLOVSKI Robert LIQ 04'46" 0
28. [RUS] TROFIMOV Yury BTL 04'46" 0
29. [DEN] SÖRENSEN Chris Anker SAX 04'46" 0
30. [ITA] CARUSO Giampaolo KAT 04'46" 0

I do not remember his position over the top of the climb though, don't have the footage on me either to check. Most of them are reasonable climbers without being exceptional. The next day on Zoncolan he was nowhere. I will be surprised (and a little concerned) if he stays at this level for 3 weeks.
Ferminal
Veteran
 
Posts: 17,001
Joined: 03 Jul 2009 09:42

29 Aug 2011 16:42

TeamSkyFans wrote:remember as well, that Froome is riding to try and get himself a contract for next season. As it stands he does not have a team for 2012.


I REALLY hope DB has a "rest day" announcement on this tomorrow.
User avatar Catwhoorg
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,992
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 11:00
Location: Atlanta, GA

29 Aug 2011 16:43

sniper wrote:if you go to a forum on global warming, you'll find that a lot of posters on it believe the globe is actually warming up.


Yeah and you'll find a lot of them are crackpots too, who can't scientifically link reasons for global warming if it is actually happening. They just believe it is so!
Larry Finnegan
New Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Sep 2010 17:23

29 Aug 2011 16:44

Not to mention that my enduring image of him is doing a Taaramäe on San Luca in the '09 Giro.

the guy has always been able to climb, and looking at his record, he seems to get better at TTs the longer they are - his record in prologues is poor, but he was top 10 in the long Tour de Suisse TT this year, and 14th in the Chérilly ITT in the 2008 Tour.

Certainly his performance today doesn't raise any more eyebrows than Peter Velits last year. It's more or less the same kind of surprise.

I'll leave you all to draw your own conclusions as to what you want to think I'm saying.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,644
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 11:54
Location: Land of Saíz

29 Aug 2011 16:48

luckyboy wrote:He has had good TTs in big races before, so the performance today can be accepted as a breakout.

But it is a struggle to find any mountain stage where he has finished in the top 50 though. Alpe di Siusi (27th @ 2'17") and Monte Petrano (24th @ 7'05") from the 2009 Giro are just about the best ones. Also, 9th @ 2'01" on a Brixia Tour 2010 stage.

I mean, he may have had good climbing potential, but you'd expect there to be some kind of incremental improvement in results before a big breakthrough such as this. There aren't really any results that suggest this kind of performance could've been expected from Froome.


Not that much of a struggle as you've just found three of them!
Larry Finnegan
New Member
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Sep 2010 17:23

Next

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 15 guests

Back to top