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Why are UK riders now more successful?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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08 Jun 2013 08:37

samerics wrote:if anyone has seen Bradley up close then you'll realise the transformation. I saw him recently in a music shop in Manchester, in November when he's not at Tour weight, and he is like a stick! I was amazed to see how thin he is, ie narrow in the upper body, not just low fat content. The guys shape changed to become a Tour rider, no question. if anyone has any proof that he dopes then fine, let's see it, otherwise just accept that he made a choice to become a different kind of rider by losing upper body weight. And I'm not a fan boy, just stating the obvious :-)


Gosh reading thought this thread has given me a headache, and I'm going to need a lie down soon.

It was Peter Keen, sports scientist extraordinaire, Chris Boardman's coach who pushed the low % body fat thing...he initiated it. And it is God awful.

The other thing is when posters imply you should stop asking questions about riders possible doping for reasons for their dramatic improvements, because "you can't prove it" Balderdash!

The only known way you can ever know whether someone is doping as proof is to get scientific samples and confessions, perferably in combination. Does not and should not stop speculation, particulary in relation to body shape changes.
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08 Jun 2013 08:40

stiff upper lip
work ethic
chariots of fire
muscular christianity
gordonstoun
mood lighting
doping
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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08 Jun 2013 12:35

horsinabout wrote:Gosh reading thought this thread has given me a headache, and I'm going to need a lie down soon.

It was Peter Keen, sports scientist extraordinaire, Chris Boardman's coach who pushed the low % body fat thing...he initiated it. And it is God awful.

The other thing is when posters imply you should stop asking questions about riders possible doping for reasons for their dramatic improvements, because "you can't prove it" Balderdash!

The only known way you can ever know whether someone is doping as proof is to get scientific samples and confessiions, perferably in combination. Does not and should not stop speculation, particulary in relation to body shape changes.
...................
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08 Jun 2013 13:02

Benotti69 wrote:But everyone was at it, with a few exceptions! Festina 98 taught us that.

Why would it have changed. Various teams since then have performed at such high levels and consistency that it is virtually impossible to believe it has changed. Look at the Director Sportifs who run these teams. With a few exceptions all doped as riders or were DS during the infamous epo era.

This place is more grounded in reality based on the history of the sport and the unchanged attitude from within the sport to doping.


Indeed, and what that team in black is doing is single-mindedly destroying any form of passion or panache in pro cycling, thus ruining it as a spectator sport, unless you enjoy switching on the box and seeing a team in black sitting at the front riding tempo all day... Is that normal? And with a annual budget of around £30 million, that buys a hell of a lot of of muesli and mineral water, must be exceptional stuff....
Well, I haven't seen a decent film clip since Lionel Ritchie's "Hello" which was the battleship Potemkin of rock video clips....

Humphrey B. Flaubert of TISM
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08 Jun 2013 13:03

horsinabout wrote:Gosh reading thought this thread has given me a headache, and I'm going to need a lie down soon.

It was Peter Keen, sports scientist extraordinaire, Chris Boardman's coach who pushed the low % body fat thing...he initiated it. And it is God awful.

The other thing is when posters imply you should stop asking questions about riders possible doping for reasons for their dramatic improvements, because "you can't prove it" Balderdash!

The only known way you can ever know whether someone is doping as proof is to get scientific samples and confessions, perferably in combination. Does not and should not stop speculation, particulary in relation to body shape changes.


Hinault and LeMond claimed around 4% in their prime...
Well, I haven't seen a decent film clip since Lionel Ritchie's "Hello" which was the battleship Potemkin of rock video clips....

Humphrey B. Flaubert of TISM
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08 Jun 2013 13:11

blackcat wrote:stiff upper lip
work ethic
chariots of fire
muscular christianity
gordonstoun
mood lighting
doping


very unlikely for cultural reasons!
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08 Jun 2013 15:37

SeriousSam wrote:very unlikely for cultural reasons!


Someone should have told Tom Simpson that.

No! The british culture of sport is clean!

Not because we have any evidence to back it up or discount all the evidence to the contrary, but because we say so.:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_sportspeople_in_doping_cases
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08 Jun 2013 16:49

S2Sturges wrote:Hinault and LeMond claimed around 4% in their prime...


Yes that isn't bad (quite normal for a highly trained endurance athlete) key point, when you still have muscle mass??? which Lemond and more so Hinault did.

Proof's in the pudding!

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08 Jun 2013 17:28

Please post a cite for 4% bodyfat being "normal" for any athlete. As far as I know, that's extremely low.
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08 Jun 2013 18:14

SeriousSam wrote:Please post a cite for 4% bodyfat being "normal" for any athlete. As far as I know, that's extremely low.


I am no expert about % body fat for endurance male cycling athletes. However, looking at historic photos of Greg Lemond (GL) and Bernard Hinault(BH), they appear to have a higher LEAN body mass than Wiggo or Froome. Basically GL/BH had much more visible muscle bulk than Wiggo/Froome.

Therefore, as a logical example, if say GL/BH had 50kg lean and say 2.5kg fat, %fat would be 5%.
If Wiggo/Broome have 40kg lean and only 2kg fat, their % fat is still 5%, but with significant actual less body fat.

Not surprising that GL/BH were much more robust in poor weather, such as suffered during the Giro rain by Wiggo.

There is a contrast rather than a comparison here, I would suggest. Any gurus on body fat % that can help us out?

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09 Jun 2013 05:45

I donot think British riders are very successful compared to say Spanish riders.
What you are seeing is just the tailend of the British cycling.
Compared to previous years also it is similar. We had Tom Simpson, Barry Hoban, Robert Millar, Christopher Boardman. Now we have
Bradley Wiggins - Very Good- Exceptional TT, Good in mountains
Chris Froome- Doesn't Count as he is an import. He came from Kenya.
Mark Cavendish - Exceptional- The Great One of Sprinting
Geriant Thomas - Not top class
Ian Stannard - Nothing Great
Ben Swift - Not good results
Alex Dowsett - Not top class
Jonathan Tiernan Locke - Failure
So much so that most of their train consists of riders from other countries
Just that 2 riders account for most of the achievements on road for British Cycling;). Track achievements are separate to this discussion.

Now the question remains as to how these 2 riders are achieving it.
Mark Cavendish - Very low cross sectional area while sprinting leading to high top speed. Doping is very doubtful in his case as he needs to do his thing only in the last few kilometers.
Bradley Wiggins- Established high power from track and TT results. Translated power to Power/weight ratio by reducing weight. Looks pretty anorexic to me from photos compared with other GC riders. " Follows "MARGINAL GAINS" philosophy. Transformation from gruppetto to TDF winner. How it was done is a mystery for everybody. Therefore Doping suspicions persist due to this and not from any concrete evidence or positives or witnesses. If there is something it will come out in the future.
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09 Jun 2013 07:53

Image

A healthy diet and the fresh sea breeze will do the trick.
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12 Jun 2013 16:31

Gugashwill
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12 Jun 2013 17:04

Apart from making the sport fair, what benefits are there in busting riders?

There is more interest in cycling and more sponsors coming into the sport so why would British Cycling go out of their way to out the cheats?

Anyone know what sort of testing goes on domestically?
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12 Jun 2013 17:07

Dear God, not (yet) another Sky / BC - bashing thread :rolleyes:
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12 Jun 2013 17:16

doolols wrote:Dear God, not (yet) another Sky / BC - bashing thread :rolleyes:


And did those feet in ancient time.
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land
Testing the bounds of reality.
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12 Jun 2013 17:50

And the relevance to doping in cycling? :rolleyes:

Some of these threads and posts are verging on the xenophobic.
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12 Jun 2013 17:52

Zam_Olyas wrote:And did those feet in ancient time.
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land


Now I'm not sure but this has William Blake written all over it?
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12 Jun 2013 17:57

doolols wrote:And the relevance to doping in cycling? :rolleyes:

Some of these threads and posts are verging on the xenophobic.


I think it is better than God Save The Queen. Why do you want to debate about Sky/UK riders doping?... Because to you they are clean and will never dope.
Testing the bounds of reality.
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12 Jun 2013 18:00

doolols wrote:Dear God, not (yet) another Sky / BC - bashing thread :rolleyes:


Your Stupid:p
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