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Why are UK riders now more successful?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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07 Mar 2012 00:10

Polish wrote:Ok, I will take your word for it.
Anyway, here is a list of Top 20 all-time greats from cyclingweekly.


1 ROBERT MILLAR 2,900 points
Pro: 1980-95

2 Tom Simpson 2,545 points
Pro: 1958-1967

3 Mark Cavendish 2,435 points
Pro: 2007-present

4 Chris Boardman 1,965 points
Pro: 1993-2000

5 David Millar 1,505 points*
Pro: 1997-present

6 Barry Hoban 1,455 points
Pro: 1962-1981

7 Bradley Wiggins 970 points
Pro: 2002-present

8 Michael Wright 800 points
Pro: 1962-1976

9 Max Sciandri 675 points **
Pro: raced as a British rider 1995-2004

10 Sean Yates 635 points
Pro: 1982-1996

11 Brian Robinson 605 points
Pro: 1952-1963

12 Malcolm Elliott 380 points
Pro: 1984-1997

13= Roger Hammond 235 points
Pro: 1998-present

13= Chris Froome 235 points
Pro: 2007-present

15 Jeremy Hunt 230 points
Pro: 1996-present

16 Vin Denson 155 points
Pro: 1959-1969

17 Alan Ramsbottom 150 points
Pro: 1961-1966

18= Graham Jones 120 points
Pro: 1979-1988

18= Paul Sherwen 120 points
Pro: 1978-1987

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/345266/cycling-weekly-s-all-time-ranking-of-british-pro-riders.html


Obviously this is not an exhaustive list of point scoring riders, but the number of riders on that list listed as - present shows what I mean. There are only two or three co-inciding at any other time.

OK I may be biased but ca nanybody tell me when a single nation controlled a world champs like last year. Obviously it was only worth doing because we had Cav at the end to finish it off, but basically 8 riders managed the rest of the world. If you if anyone wants to say that the UK could ever have achieved this before then they are crazy.
Biggut
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07 Mar 2012 00:23

Biggut wrote:Obviously this is not an exhaustive list of point scoring riders, but the number of riders on that list listed as - present shows what I mean. There are only two or three co-inciding at any other time.

OK I may be biased but ca nanybody tell me when a single nation controlled a world champs like last year. Obviously it was only worth doing because we had Cav at the end to finish it off, but basically 8 riders managed the rest of the world. If you if anyone wants to say that the UK could ever have achieved this before then they are crazy.


Italy the year Cipo won 2002 was it, maybe not as dominant as GB but they controlled the race. Worlds Championship circuits like last year and Zolder are an anomaly and a joke and are to be taken with a pinch of salt. Controlling normal World Championship circuits is not like controlling flat circuits so no comparison.
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07 Mar 2012 00:24

Other nations could have done it on that course, but you're right in that it's probably the first time a GB team could have done it. And it was very impressive.
hatcher
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07 Mar 2012 00:27

Biggut wrote:Obviously this is not an exhaustive list of point scoring riders, but the number of riders on that list listed as - present shows what I mean. There are only two or three co-inciding at any other time.

OK I may be biased but ca nanybody tell me when a single nation controlled a world champs like last year. Obviously it was only worth doing because we had Cav at the end to finish it off, but basically 8 riders managed the rest of the world. If you if anyone wants to say that the UK could ever have achieved this before then they are crazy.


Except that 3 of the "current" riders have been riding since the 90's. Hardly part of a new generation or rennaisance in UK cycling.

What I want to know is - which up and coming rider will knock Paul Sherwin off the Top 20 list lol. It looks like cyclingweekly is keeping this list updated from time to time, last update last month. Who will accrue 121+ points and knock Paul off the list. That guy will earn a few fans here in the clinic:)
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07 Mar 2012 00:35

hatcher wrote:Other nations could have done it on that course, but you're right in that it's probably the first time a GB team could have done it. And it was very impressive.


Yeah but GB had a bigger incentive to do so more than any other nation just like Italy previously, they both had the clear No 1 sprinter in the world. Also GB has quite a few of the right type of riders for such a circuit, stong TT guys with big engines who can drill it on the front i.e lots of former track guys. Would have loved to have seen that GB team on the 89 circuit in Chambery. Most likely zero finishers.

When Italy picked their team for Zolder, there were guys on the team who would never have been anywhere near a normal Italian Worlds team. Even Cipo usually packed in his season before the Worlds but continued on that year. That was actually one of the few times when the Italian team was united behind one leader because they left the rest at home, choice was ride for Cipo or stay at home.
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07 Mar 2012 00:38

Libertine Seguros wrote:Again, Cavendish and Clancy were on Sparkasse, not Thüringer Energie. Thüringer Energie didn't start up until 2006, the season both moved on, Cavendish to T-Mobile as a stagiare, Clancy to Landbouwkrediet likewise.

As for JLA in the Jausiers stage, he did indeed crash descending the Col de la Bonette, after attacking a group with Hincapie in it as recalled, but unfortunately the team car was way back, and as his bike had fallen down the mountainside poor John-Lee had to stand by the side of the road and watch group after group go past him while he waited for a new bike. He finished about 5 minutes down as a result.


well, I have been out of checking news for a while, and forgot it, was trying to remember the german espoirs, I knew there were two teams, and that Martin was on them and so was the other guy Gretsch, and the other sprinter who won some dauphine stages and third in u23s to matthews tying with the french canuck for third, and he came third in the first paris nice stage. Memory needs cofffeee!. . But I do know there is a fat picture of Cav in the Sparkasse uniform. I was getting them conflated. But u do your best for one-upmanship LS as is your wont.
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07 Mar 2012 00:41

but Libertine, Heiko was their coach innit? ;)
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07 Mar 2012 00:48

Clancy's win coulda been Tour of Berlin too, not Thuringen. memory playing games. Cant find the pic of cav as a pudgy dude in the sparkasse uniform. It was either on cyclingwesbite.net or wikipedia
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07 Mar 2012 00:53

I get your point that several are others who have been competing for a long period. however this is counter balanced by riders like Thomas, Swift, Blyth and Kennaugh all scoring points last year but not yet being on the list. I would hope that all of them will surpass 120 points, especially Swift who gained 91 last year alone.

In addition JTLs continental performances along with Downings recent victory just add to my feeling that there are more Brit victories than before.
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07 Mar 2012 03:49

hmronnow wrote:Well, in the case of this guy, I believe part of the speculations was that he might have used dope to become so skinny. I have no information or opinion on this guy, but from what I've read (which includes a few research grant proposals) there are fine dopes available that help you become skinny, including reducing muscle mass.


Name them. Then name the scientific principle that allows one to increase power output whilst losing muscle mass. You cannot and won't be able to. Better yet explain to me how one can specifically target an isolated body group (upper trunk and chest) and only lose weight there. You won't be able to...you cannot just point a finger at a section of your body and go "Alakazaam" and hey presto, instant chango in body whilst increasing your overall power output!

Simple fact is, Wigans goes faster in a chrono with a lower body weight but not because of efficiency, but because he simply increased his power via a good old program ripped from the LA playbook. He never had results at a heavier weight as an ITT specialist, as he does now as a GC rider. That's what doping does for you. BTW, the drug he used, it's called AICAR. That's how he lost the weight. Thanks for the useless fanboy drizzle. Sky are throwing everything they can at winning. In cycling. Seriously, if you think doping isn't involved you are beyond hope. That's where their results have come from. A syringe and a blood bag. Wigans was crap 5-6 years ago on the road. Not through lack of trying...but because he was riding clean(er).
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07 Mar 2012 05:40

right Galic.

There should be some inverse relationship.

Like in AFL muscle mass and leanness or bodyfat % should be inverse correlation. But now you get quinten lynch and travis cloke at 108kg and 5% bodyfat. Never happened in the 90's when there was just steroids.
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07 Mar 2012 06:43

Mambo95 wrote:They also use different sized chainrings and sporckets.

A typical 80s bike used 54/44 and 12-21
A typical modern bike has 53/39 and 11-26

44/21 = 2.09
53/26 = 2.03

So a lower ratio is achievable with a modern big ring than an 80s small ring.

If you consider doping the only explanation for anything, you miss so much.
Problem is your information is wrong.

52/42 or 53/42 were the norm coupled with a 13-21, 13-23, 13-24 or occasionally 12-21, 12-23 or 12-24 freewheel. 44 was and still is a P-R set up.
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07 Mar 2012 08:45

Galic Ho wrote:Name them. Then name the scientific principle that allows one to increase power output whilst losing muscle mass. You cannot and won't be able to. Better yet explain to me how one can specifically target an isolated body group (upper trunk and chest) and only lose weight there. You won't be able to...you cannot just point a finger at a section of your body and go "Alakazaam" and hey presto, instant chango in body whilst increasing your overall power output!

Simple fact is, Wigans goes faster in a chrono with a lower body weight but not because of efficiency, but because he simply increased his power via a good old program ripped from the LA playbook. He never had results at a heavier weight as an ITT specialist, as he does now as a GC rider. That's what doping does for you. BTW, the drug he used, it's called AICAR. That's how he lost the weight. Thanks for the useless fanboy drizzle. Sky are throwing everything they can at winning. In cycling. Seriously, if you think doping isn't involved you are beyond hope. That's where their results have come from. A syringe and a blood bag. Wigans was crap 5-6 years ago on the road. Not through lack of trying...but because he was riding clean(er).


I will of course not name confidential research proposals. But one of them were aimed at understanding whether and why AICAR in addtion to burn fat also reduce muscle mass. Of course you can't reduce specific muscle groups, but you can cause general reduction, and simultaneously only train wanted muscle groups. If someone were to apply such methods, they have already crossed a line and would be silly to not combine it with blood techniques. Again, I have no information about any riders, simply speculating about what could be possible with existing drugs.
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07 Mar 2012 10:03

Is this drug only available to Wiggins and the other UK riders, if not then this whole avenue is completely irrelevant to his thread.
Biggut
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07 Mar 2012 10:34

Biggut wrote:Is this drug only available to Wiggins and the other UK riders, if not then this whole avenue is completely irrelevant to his thread.


I don't think it is exclusive in UK, so you are right it is irrelevant to the opening question. The tangent is my fault. The opening question lead to discussion of Wiggins. Someone argued that his success was due to weight loss, not due to drugs. I simply pointed out that weight loss in itself can be achieved with drugs. Thats all.
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07 Mar 2012 11:46

Benotti69 wrote: Nowadays they still climb on the big ring :)


Junk. They climb on the inner ring, and they use compact chainsets. And they are slower. Even Cobo with his bovine legs used gearing that would raise eyebrows in your local club for 'being a bit girly' at the Vuelta.

Try learning something about the sport rather than making stuff up. You come across as dogmatic on Clinic aspects of the sport but not as having any interest in it beyond those aspects.

back OT

As to the Brits (of which I am) we have chucked tens and tens of millions* at the sport, then there's the Sky money, and if we weren't seeing results you would have to ask questions, clinic or not. I am prepared to put Wiggins on the outer limit of what might be achieved clean as he failed so spectacularly in 2010. And while PEDs can help you lose weight quickly, you can do it without over time. He's now been dropping weight for 4 years so to lose 12kg in that time does not seem so outrageous. I had a big car crash in Dec and lost 12kg in 14 days while in hospital (although admittedly half of that was down to wine beer and cake and I also lost 50W at threshold but its coming back).

Other recent UK riders who have exploded onto the scene, I am less certain about it, and if they got busted it would not be a bolt out of the blue.

* It probably would have been a lot cheaper if Sport UK had bought a load of EPO, blood bags and AICAR but there you go.
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07 Mar 2012 12:40

blackcat wrote:cant think of MAx as a brit. Italian as they come.


Apart from being born in Derby....
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07 Mar 2012 13:02

Winterfold wrote:Junk. They climb on the inner ring, and they use compact chainsets. And they are slower. Even Cobo with his bovine legs used gearing that would raise eyebrows in your local club for 'being a bit girly' at the Vuelta.

Try learning something about the sport rather than making stuff up. You come across as dogmatic on Clinic aspects of the sport but not as having any interest in it beyond those aspects.



I was quoting Stephen Swart. I dont remember seeing Canc on his inner ring riding the Strada Bianche and i dont think Swart was alluding to HC climbs you get in GTs but when in general when the roads go up and not a gentle rise. But then if the gearing is so good why do they need inner rings :rollleyes:

As for the Vuelta Cobo was climbing a wall and again Swart was not alluding to this type of climb.

As for the technical aspects of the sport i leave that to all the LBS boys on here.

As others have pointed out the Clinic is 'The Posting Place' for doping in cycling, other websites have other interesting areas that i post on.

My last word on it as this thread is about UK riders.

To me it obvious why the UK riders are making an impact, the same reasons at the Spanish and Italians do.
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07 Mar 2012 16:20

Biggut wrote:Obviously this is not an exhaustive list of point scoring riders, but the number of riders on that list listed as - present shows what I mean. There are only two or three co-inciding at any other time.

OK I may be biased but ca nanybody tell me when a single nation controlled a world champs like last year. Obviously it was only worth doing because we had Cav at the end to finish it off, but basically 8 riders managed the rest of the world. If you if anyone wants to say that the UK could ever have achieved this before then they are crazy.


Whether a race gets controlled is far more about whether there is any point controlling it than about whether you have the legs. Ultimately, GB knew that if they could have Cav near the front with 300m to go, then they would more likely than not have a world champion.

It's not often you have the course and the rider to be able to make that statement. You have to say, also, that if you'd been able to pick the other 8 from a bigger cycling nation, they might have found it even easier.
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07 Mar 2012 16:28

Benotti69 wrote:To me it obvious why the UK riders are making an impact, the same reasons at the Spanish and Italians do.


As sad as it is for a Brit cycling fan to admit this, I think British riders almost certainly dope as much as the rest of the peloton. However, whether this is responsible for their rise is surely up for debate.

To me, it seems far more likely that our riders have always doped as much as the rest. The 3 best road riders pre-SKY-lottery are Tommy Simpson and the Millars, and there's evidence that all 3 doped. Tommy paid dearly for it, Robert Millar's gone a bit funny and Dave Millar is very very very very sorry, but they all still doped.

The rise, I think, is therefore down to all these other factors; better funding, higher profile, better route from weekend rider to pro rider, our own team, a strong background from the track.

To summarise - I'm not saying we don't dope, I think we do, but I think that the dope has always been there. The rise in performance is not for the clinic to decide.
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