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Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

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Will Contador Be Juiced Up Again Upon His Return

Poll ended at 01 Jul 2012 10:13

YES
78
74%
NO
27
26%
 
Total votes : 105

Re:

01 Sep 2017 02:11

DanielSong39 wrote:At the risk of oversimplification, here's my take on Contador, compared to Froome, Armstrong, and Indurain:

- I find Contador to be more entertaining than the other guys.
- Contador was actually punished for his doping and then came back. Froome and Indurain were never punished while Armstrong was punished only after his career was over. At least he got a slap on the wrist while the other guys got off scott-free during their careers.
- Contador's team managers weren't quite as bad in terms of bullying tactics and political garbage as Sky and US Postal. (Mind you, it was still pretty bad.)
- With Contador there is at least the suspension of disbelief that he might be doing this with good old fashioned drugs. Froome resembles a MotoGP rider coasting up hills at 20km/hr.

I think these are the reasons why I have a different opinion on Contador compared to the other guys.


Nothing like entertaining dopers. From what I have seen of Froome this year he is nothing like the Froome of old which made the Tour a pretty odd race to watch. He was bad in the Dauphine and hadn't won a race before the Tour.
movingtarget
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01 Sep 2017 07:40

In the end it seems the three most important factors to get away as doper and to be liked be fans are: 1. be good early on 2. have a steady progression 3. keep your mouth shut 4. be entertaining 5. look good on a bike.

Contador: 1. check, 2. check, 3. more or less check, 4. check, 5. check

Froome: 1. nope, 2. nope, 3. nope (albeit it is the team in this case), 4. more or less check, 5. nope

Unfair, but also understandable - 4,5 vs. 0,5 in the doper like scala.
ppanther92
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Re:

01 Sep 2017 07:50

ppanther92 wrote:In the end it seems the three most important factors to get away as doper and to be liked be fans are: 1. be good early on 2. have a steady progression 3. keep your mouth shut 4. be entertaining 5. look good on a bike.

Contador: 1. check, 2. check, 3. more or less check, 4. check, 5. check

Froome: 1. nope, 2. nope, 3. nope (albeit it is the team in this case), 4. more or less check, 5. nope

Unfair, but also understandable - 4,5 vs. 0,5 in the doper like scala.


That's close, at least in the Internet court of public opinion and in the minds of the partisans.

Unfortunately in the real world, Froome is not a doper. We may assume that he is, but it's all circumstantial. Contador was nabbed, unfairly or not, and it will taint his record. If Froome is caught, either by testing or by subpoena, then we can fairly call both of them "dopers."

For the record I like AC as a rider. His fans...need a reality check once in a while.
Bolder
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Re:

01 Sep 2017 08:27

ppanther92 wrote:In the end it seems the three most important factors to get away as doper and to be liked be fans are: 1. be good early on 2. have a steady progression 3. keep your mouth shut 4. be entertaining 5. look good on a bike.

Contador: 1. check, 2. check, 3. more or less check, 4. check, 5. check

Froome: 1. nope, 2. nope, 3. nope (albeit it is the team in this case), 4. more or less check, 5. nope

Unfair, but also understandable - 4,5 vs. 0,5 in the doper like scala.

Good post!
User avatar LaFlorecita
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 08:51

miguelindurain111 wrote:
Electress wrote:
arvc40 wrote:I will say that I am pleased that Contador has been able to realise his real ability level in last few years at the Tour. Imagine only ever knowing your high octane level. Although he would have probably been happy to carry on with cheating and lies.

He now knows that he was 2nd best to Mick Rass and 2nd best to Froome in last few years.

2009 was a good Tour for him. He won that fair and square, albeit without Michael Rass and Froome there.

2010 not really a happy memory !.


What a thoroughly nasty little post.


The Clinic is full of them. But it only bothers you when they are about your career long doper hero?


Yes, pretty much. Is this such a surprise? I assume others need no help defending their riders of choice.

dacooley wrote:I didn't know that real fan of Contador should necessarily worship the hero until his/her heart stops and hate froome, valverde, nibali and others.


Mmm. Now do I qualify as a real fan according to your criteria? Well 'Worship' may be a tad extreme, I suppose, but I can live with it. Can't quite work out your syntax though. Is that my or Contador's heart?

Either way, yes, quite possibly. His heart might outlast mine though. We'll have to see what happens as I age. '

As for the hatred. Well, no. I rather like Valverde and Nibali. Froome, you're quite right on. But, to bawdlerise Meatloaf, one out of three aint bad.

I also rather like the Ppanther92 scale. Though I object on principle that The Great One doesn't score 5/5. I also think we need a weighting factor to take into account just how entertaining and how good he looks on (and may I say off) a bike... ;)
Electress
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Re:

01 Sep 2017 14:48

ppanther92 wrote:Contador: [..] 3. more or less check [...]

http://www.abc.es/videos-deportes/20110128/contador-considero-ejemplo-limpieza-767561428001.html

That's a "nope" in my book.
User avatar hrotha
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 15:14

hrotha wrote:
ppanther92 wrote:Contador: [..] 3. more or less check [...]

http://www.abc.es/videos-deportes/20110128/contador-considero-ejemplo-limpieza-767561428001.html

That's a "nope" in my book.

There are better examples than this, tbh.
For example, the one where he said that the doping is only on the low levels or sth like that. (from 2015 or 2016)
Or the one where he said he wishes for more ban for blood doping.
I wish he wouldn't speak about these matters btw. It doesn't reflect him well. And certainly enough reason for people to dislike him. (Even though I'm a fan)
Forever The Best
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 16:32

86TDFWinner wrote:
arvc40 wrote:2009 was a good Tour for him. He won that fair and square, albeit without Michael Rass and Froome there.

.


:lol: :lol: That you actually believe that he won that "fair and square" and clean.


No, I just mean that he won the race without having it passed down to him or taken away. I know he was doped to the gills !.
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 16:48

Angliru wrote:
arvc40 wrote:
Angliru wrote:
arvc40 wrote:I will say that I am pleased that Contador has been able to realise his real ability level in last few years at the Tour. Imagine only ever knowing your high octane level. Although he would have probably been happy to carry on with cheating and lies.

He now knows that he was 2nd best to Mick Rass and 2nd best to Froome in last few years.

2009 was a good Tour for him. He won that fair and square, albeit without Michael Rass and Froome there.

2010 not really a happy memory !.


You are on some really other worldly type of stuff. This is the true you that is only hinted at in the Professional Cycling side. If you believe your lord and master is clean then being clueless is the least of your afflictions.


Just opinion, try not to take it personal.

Lord and Master, what Froome ?, dont think so.

I like all the riders and appreciate all they achieve.

Honestly at this point I am not a fan of any one rider over the other. Happy to watch and happy for the winner of any given race.

Clueless ?, sorry, I admit I did spell Michael Rasmussen incorrectly.

Indeed this is in fact the real me.


So you like Contador, appreciate his achievements in spite of the fact that you think that he's a cheater and a liar? Then you follow up with statements that show that you don't appreciate his achievements because in your eyes they weren't done versus more worthy winners.


Yes, I appreciate the achievements of Liars and cheats, 30 years watching cycling you have to. I appreciate some achievements more than others. I was just stating my opinion regards to certain aspects of his career. Are you saying that he was not handed the 2007 Tour and that he was better than MR ? (his peak years according to some !). Are you saying 2010 is not a bad memory and that it was not taken away ?. Are you saying MR and CF where at 2009 Tour ?.

I maintain that I respect the way he has raced since he stopped using so much hot sauce, some riders have crumbled. He has had to learn that his level is one of which he can not be so dominant anymore. And it wasnt old father time, this has been the case for many years now.

I maintain that I am a massive fan of him, but I am looking at results and not what he looks like in his new kit !.

Some of the best moments I have seen he has instigated.
arvc40
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 19:11

arvc40 wrote:
Angliru wrote:
arvc40 wrote:
Angliru wrote:
arvc40 wrote:I will say that I am pleased that Contador has been able to realise his real ability level in last few years at the Tour. Imagine only ever knowing your high octane level. Although he would have probably been happy to carry on with cheating and lies.

He now knows that he was 2nd best to Mick Rass and 2nd best to Froome in last few years.

2009 was a good Tour for him. He won that fair and square, albeit without Michael Rass and Froome there.

2010 not really a happy memory !.


You are on some really other worldly type of stuff. This is the true you that is only hinted at in the Professional Cycling side. If you believe your lord and master is clean then being clueless is the least of your afflictions.


Just opinion, try not to take it personal.

Lord and Master, what Froome ?, dont think so.

I like all the riders and appreciate all they achieve.

Honestly at this point I am not a fan of any one rider over the other. Happy to watch and happy for the winner of any given race.

Clueless ?, sorry, I admit I did spell Michael Rasmussen incorrectly.

Indeed this is in fact the real me.


So you like Contador, appreciate his achievements in spite of the fact that you think that he's a cheater and a liar? Then you follow up with statements that show that you don't appreciate his achievements because in your eyes they weren't done versus more worthy winners.


Yes, I appreciate the achievements of Liars and cheats, 30 years watching cycling you have to. I appreciate some achievements more than others. I was just stating my opinion regards to certain aspects of his career. Are you saying that he was not handed the 2007 Tour and that he was better than MR ? (his peak years according to some !). Are you saying 2010 is not a bad memory and that it was not taken away ?. Are you saying MR and CF where at 2009 Tour ?.

I maintain that I respect the way he has raced since he stopped using so much hot sauce, some riders have crumbled. He has had to learn that his level is one of which he can not be so dominant anymore. And it wasnt old father time, this has been the case for many years now.

I maintain that I am a massive fan of him, but I am looking at results and not what he looks like in his new kit !.

Some of the best moments I have seen he has instigated.


So much hot sauce? Do you think if someone is going to dope they are only going to dope a little bit? Your busted what ever amount is in your system . Bertie is my favourite rider but age catches up with everyone. Simple. The body will not react the same way as you get older otherwise we would see riders retiring in their 50's.
There are plenty of riders who dope up to their eyeballs but will always be peloton fodder. We have seen them busted from all levels. Some riders just get more benefit . You only have to look at CF the early years in no way did he show tour winning potential. There are far more talented riders that the PED's just don't work for them as well. Genetic luck of the draw. Bertie would be using as much hot sauce as he ever has.
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 20:30

Forever The Best wrote:
hrotha wrote:
ppanther92 wrote:Contador: [..] 3. more or less check [...]

http://www.abc.es/videos-deportes/20110128/contador-considero-ejemplo-limpieza-767561428001.html

That's a "nope" in my book.

There are better examples than this, tbh.
For example, the one where he said that the doping is only on the low levels or sth like that. (from 2015 or 2016)
Or the one where he said he wishes for more ban for blood doping.
I wish he wouldn't speak about these matters btw. It doesn't reflect him well. And certainly enough reason for people to dislike him. (Even though I'm a fan)

Well, what is he supposed to answer when he is asked about such topics? The difference between him and other moralists is that he doesn't come out to crucify riders that have been caught, doesn't claim to be better (cleaner) than everyone else, doesn't claim his victories are victories for clean cycling, etc.
If Froome is a 'nope', then Contador definitely deserves to be 'more or less check', simply because he usually keeps his mouth shut.
User avatar LaFlorecita
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 20:43

LaFlorecita wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:
hrotha wrote:
ppanther92 wrote:Contador: [..] 3. more or less check [...]

http://www.abc.es/videos-deportes/20110128/contador-considero-ejemplo-limpieza-767561428001.html

That's a "nope" in my book.

There are better examples than this, tbh.
For example, the one where he said that the doping is only on the low levels or sth like that. (from 2015 or 2016)
Or the one where he said he wishes for more ban for blood doping.
I wish he wouldn't speak about these matters btw. It doesn't reflect him well. And certainly enough reason for people to dislike him. (Even though I'm a fan)

Well, what is he supposed to answer when he is asked about such topics? The difference between him and other moralists is that he doesn't come out to crucify riders that have been caught, doesn't claim to be better (cleaner) than everyone else, doesn't claim his victories are victories for clean cycling, etc.
If Froome is a 'nope', then Contador definitely deserves to be 'more or less check', simply because he usually keeps his mouth shut.

Froome is even worse than 'nope' in that category. :o Contador would get 0 while Froome would get -0,5.

About the blood doping one, they probably asked him about it and he answered like that (from what I remember) though he could have said sth like 'We don't need making the ban longer, everyone deserves a 2nd chance, 2 (if it was 4 years when he saif that make 2 a 4 instead) years is enough'. But there can be an answer 'If he had answered like you said some people would have criticized for him' which can be fair enough.

About the other one though (about the one which he 'doping is only on low levels' or sth like that) there is no excuse for it. He could have simply said 'I believe there is not doping in cycling' but no, he said that doping is only on low levels which is a hypocritical thing to say.
Last edited by Forever The Best on 01 Sep 2017 21:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 21:20

Lv426 wrote:Bertie is my favourite rider but age catches up with everyone. Simple. The body will not react the same way as you get older otherwise we would see riders retiring in their 50's.


My baloney has a first name, it's H-O-R-N-E-R
My baloney has a second name, it's R-E-B-E-L-L-I-N
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 22:10

Forever The Best wrote:About the other one though (about the one which he 'doping is only on low levels' or sth like that) there is no excuse for it. He could have simply said 'I believe there is not doping in cycling' but no, he said that doping is only on low levels which is a hypocritical thing to say.

If he said that, it would be easy to prove him wrong by just pointing at the dozens of riders that test positive each year at continental level, around the globe. That is probably why he said low level still dopes, in for example South America so many riders test positive for outdated drugs.
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Re: Re:

01 Sep 2017 23:58

vedrafjord wrote:
Lv426 wrote:Bertie is my favourite rider but age catches up with everyone. Simple. The body will not react the same way as you get older otherwise we would see riders retiring in their 50's.


My baloney has a first name, it's H-O-R-N-E-R
My baloney has a second name, it's R-E-B-E-L-L-I-N
Wait but Horner was on the beach (relative to the conquests of AC) most of his career so where was wear and tear? I don't think its a fair comparison. But he seems like he got a special age boosting juice. Please share Horner.
jilbiker
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Re: Re:

02 Sep 2017 08:26

LaFlorecita wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:
hrotha wrote:
ppanther92 wrote:Contador: [..] 3. more or less check [...]

http://www.abc.es/videos-deportes/20110128/contador-considero-ejemplo-limpieza-767561428001.html

That's a "nope" in my book.

There are better examples than this, tbh.
For example, the one where he said that the doping is only on the low levels or sth like that. (from 2015 or 2016)
Or the one where he said he wishes for more ban for blood doping.
I wish he wouldn't speak about these matters btw. It doesn't reflect him well. And certainly enough reason for people to dislike him. (Even though I'm a fan)

Well, what is he supposed to answer when he is asked about such topics? The difference between him and other moralists is that he doesn't come out to crucify riders that have been caught, doesn't claim to be better (cleaner) than everyone else, doesn't claim his victories are victories for clean cycling, etc.
If Froome is a 'nope', then Contador definitely deserves to be 'more or less check', simply because he usually keeps his mouth shut.


Argh. Two quotes above Contador says he considers himself an example of cleanliness. Two quotes below apparently Contador doesn't claim to be cleaner than everyone else.
User avatar roundabout
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Re: Re:

02 Sep 2017 08:30

Forever The Best wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:
hrotha wrote:
ppanther92 wrote:Contador: [..] 3. more or less check [...]

http://www.abc.es/videos-deportes/20110128/contador-considero-ejemplo-limpieza-767561428001.html

That's a "nope" in my book.

There are better examples than this, tbh.
For example, the one where he said that the doping is only on the low levels or sth like that. (from 2015 or 2016)
Or the one where he said he wishes for more ban for blood doping.
I wish he wouldn't speak about these matters btw. It doesn't reflect him well. And certainly enough reason for people to dislike him. (Even though I'm a fan)

Well, what is he supposed to answer when he is asked about such topics? The difference between him and other moralists is that he doesn't come out to crucify riders that have been caught, doesn't claim to be better (cleaner) than everyone else, doesn't claim his victories are victories for clean cycling, etc.
If Froome is a 'nope', then Contador definitely deserves to be 'more or less check', simply because he usually keeps his mouth shut.

Froome is even worse than 'nope' in that category. :o Contador would get 0 while Froome would get -0,5.

About the blood doping one, they probably asked him about it and he answered like that (from what I remember) though he could have said sth like 'We don't need making the ban longer, everyone deserves a 2nd chance, 2 (if it was 4 years when he saif that make 2 a 4 instead) years is enough'. But there can be an answer 'If he had answered like you said some people would have criticized for him' which can be fair enough.

About the other one though (about the one which he 'doping is only on low levels' or sth like that) there is no excuse for it. He could have simply said 'I believe there is not doping in cycling' but no, he said that doping is only on low levels which is a hypocritical thing to say.


So outright lying is preferable?
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Re: Re:

02 Sep 2017 09:44

roundabout wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:

There are better examples than this, tbh.
For example, the one where he said that the doping is only on the low levels or sth like that. (from 2015 or 2016)
Or the one where he said he wishes for more ban for blood doping.
I wish he wouldn't speak about these matters btw. It doesn't reflect him well. And certainly enough reason for people to dislike him. (Even though I'm a fan)

Well, what is he supposed to answer when he is asked about such topics? The difference between him and other moralists is that he doesn't come out to crucify riders that have been caught, doesn't claim to be better (cleaner) than everyone else, doesn't claim his victories are victories for clean cycling, etc.
If Froome is a 'nope', then Contador definitely deserves to be 'more or less check', simply because he usually keeps his mouth shut.

Froome is even worse than 'nope' in that category. :o Contador would get 0 while Froome would get -0,5.

About the blood doping one, they probably asked him about it and he answered like that (from what I remember) though he could have said sth like 'We don't need making the ban longer, everyone deserves a 2nd chance, 2 (if it was 4 years when he saif that make 2 a 4 instead) years is enough'. But there can be an answer 'If he had answered like you said some people would have criticized for him' which can be fair enough.

About the other one though (about the one which he 'doping is only on low levels' or sth like that) there is no excuse for it. He could have simply said 'I believe there is not doping in cycling' but no, he said that doping is only on low levels which is a hypocritical thing to say.


So outright lying is preferable?

Froome was calling for more tests in Teide when he was leaving. (Nibali and Contador were there as well)
Or this coming from the person who won Romandie '14 with a TUE: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-calls-on-anti-doping-authorities-to-urgently-address-tue-system/

Also Contafor only answered when asked (which still doesn't forgive his answer on the one about doping in low level) yet those 2 examples of Froome didn't have a question to him. He just said those things without being asked.
Also these: (even though they aren't clinicky)
Whining about Contador attacking on a descent in Gap '13
Whining about Nibali attacking in La Touissure '15
Or the identity theft.
Or his 'The Climb' book. The coffee thing, for example.
Or the animal cruelty which he was even boasting about.

And yes, there is a difference about answering when asked (which still doesn't forgive his answer on the one about doping in low level) and saying those things without being even asked.
Last edited by Forever The Best on 07 Sep 2017 17:51, edited 1 time in total.
Forever The Best
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Re: Re:

02 Sep 2017 10:12

LaFlorecita wrote:
Forever The Best wrote:About the other one though (about the one which he 'doping is only on low levels' or sth like that) there is no excuse for it. He could have simply said 'I believe there is not doping in cycling' but no, he said that doping is only on low levels which is a hypocritical thing to say.

If he said that, it would be easy to prove him wrong by just pointing at the dozens of riders that test positive each year at continental level, around the globe. That is probably why he said low level still dopes, in for example South America so many riders test positive for outdated drugs.
I disagree. He should have said sth like 'Cycling is hopefully clean' without mentioning the low level riders are doping thingy.
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02 Sep 2017 10:53

I don't care if you're asked, "I see myself as a paragon of cleanliness" really goes the extra mile and is up there with the worst Froome or Nibali have said. But if you want unprompted declarations, how about his 2006 open letter?
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