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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 08:01

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04x2lzh

For people who want to lisetn.
User avatar MartinGT
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 09:17

Robert5091 wrote:Josh - I injected, Peters - he said he didn't inject (and thereby a loophole) ... yeah.


In the immortal words of Vicky Pollard. 'Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but...'
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 09:52

Robert5091 wrote:Josh - I injected, Peters - he said he didn't inject (and thereby a loophole) ... yeah.


Peters is more cynical than that as he plays both sides of the argument

As you say, Peters rebuts Edmondson's claim that he injected hence there was no therefore reason for Sky to tell the authorities about a needle violation. This is the latest lie dreamed up by Sky to deflect the heat

But Peters also says Edmondson' mental state was prioritised over following the rules which is irrelevant if there's no needle violation as there's no need to tell the authorities

Also worth noting that only a couple of days ago Sky refused on medical confidentiality grounds a request by the MPs to say which other Sky riders have Freeman inspired gaps in their medical records during the period when the Kenalog stockpile was mysteriously disappearing from the Manchester pharmacy. Two days later medical confidentiality goes out the window and Peters is on the BBC News discussing Edmondson's mental health issues in some detail
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 10:11

blackcat wrote: you failed to recognise, that after the USSR and GDR, the depth fell away on the track, the classy riders from the east, like Eki, came across to the road from the track, lots of other Soviet state riders, who would have contested the best riders like Bartko, Mcgee, Wiggins, went to the road. A rider like Raimondas Rumsas would have probably pumped everyone on the track. You can be small, lean, and hammer an IP and TP, see the height/weight of Peter Kennaugh and Jack Bobridge. Kittel and Greipel, would have pumped the Brits, think about Degenkolb, Gretsch, Greipel, Kittel, Martin, they would have lapped the Australians and the Brits and the Kiwis. Especially if Heiko was coaching them.

the money that went into the British track program, was enough for them to dominate the track

caveat: the communist system had a sports talent ID program and sports schools, for their propaganda, effectively equivalent resources that the UK system now funnels.

so, if we view it thru this lens, we can ascertain that the medals and victories, are merely an intersection of economic resources, and catchment of potential athletes(talent pool)


I'm unsure why you've responded to me with this, as you seen to be focussed on anglophone success on the track and I haven't made any assessment of why the anglophone countries have done well on the track or discussed the success of GB cycling's track programme. Diversification applies to all countries competing on the track. I don't disagree that BC have thrown huge amounts of money at a sport where they saw that money equals medals, but GBs success in the IP predates national lottery funding with Hugh Porter, Tony Doyle, Colin Sturgess, Shaun Wallace, Graeme Obree and Chris Boardman all winning multiple medals (Did Boardman receive funding?). I simply highlighted the fact that, when the quote that was being discussed was made, there was ample evidence that GT winners could also be good IP riders. It doesn't mean every good IP rider can win a GT, it just shows the two are certainly not mutually exclusive.

Your comment about the USSR and GDR riders moving away from the track so the depth was removed from the field is confusing when we are discussing the IP, because the USSR won exactly 1 medal in the WC IP, a gold in 1990. Gintautas Umaras won gold at the Olympics in 1988 and I believe that is their only medal in the IP. I don't think the GDR have ever won an IP medal at the WC or the Olympics, and the GDR rank below Sweden in terms of total medals won at the Olympics. The USSR and GDR dominated the medal tables twice, once in 1980 (and it should be obvious why) and in 1988. While they performed well from about 1972 onwards, this is only in the Olympics, not the WC, does not impact the period of time where the quote came from and does not seem to apply to the IP.

The assumption that the current crop of German riders would easily win the TP/IP is simply that, assumption and I don't think bears up to scrutiny. Cavendish could not force his way into the TP squad and he is a more likely candidate than both Kittel and Greipel. Martin, Gretsch and Degenkolb I think could certainly have been/might be good track riders, but track riding in Germany has always been reasonably strong and after the Ullrich affair and German TVs boycott of the TdF I think that if they were going to succeed massively on the track then they would have gone there. I'm sure that, if they wanted to, guys like Martin and Cancellara could have been very, very good IP riders, as could GT winners such as Contador, Evans, Indurain possibly even Basso etc.


If you are going to bring up the break up of the USSR and GDR then you also need to take into account the history of the sport in every country that competes. You need to consider the ban on road racing in the UK that stifled the scene for many years, you need to consider the upheaval in China and their current politics that may be affecting possible riders. You need to consider that cycling is now much more global and more easily accessible which has lead to a resurgence of the Colombian riders. We are finally starting to see some African riders come through the ranks (not the rich, white colonists). Track cycling is prohibitively expensive for many countries that may or may not be able to compete and road cycling can be as well. It all has an effect on the talent pool in all forms of the sport and makes assessment of a persons success against all possible outcomes pretty much impossible. It's why people always say you can only beat who is in front of you.


This has all gone off at a tangent though. So to bring it back to the very original point, and the only point that I, or in fact fmk_rol, was trying to make and that I added a bit more to, there is ample historical precedent to show that people who perform well in the IP can also win GTs, in some cases multiple GTs. This doesn't negate doping at all, we know many of those riders who have done both doped, but it doesn't mean that some super secret extra-strength doping is necessarily required for a rider to make the change (it also doesn't preclude that).
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User avatar King Boonen
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17 Mar 2017 10:19

Just picking up on all this. More Obfuscation by getting people to admit to little indiscretions while ignoring the big ones. How's about they produce the relevant documentation to show which riders got triamcinolone injections, the UCI documents that were submitted as required and the financial documents to show that riders who were not part of the GB program who were treated were paid for by Team Sky (if the final part is applicable).

On a more general point this is just getting ridiculous. Constant lies, retractions, new lies, crazy explanations and now admissions and cover ups coming out and yet we are still expected to believe and trust them? Well, Bikeradar do... :rolleyes:
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17 Mar 2017 10:24

Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 10:28

Cycle Chic wrote:Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....


He reported him to management, that opens up loads of possible explanations. Maybe the team is dirty but the team mate wasn't. Maybe the team mat knew it wasn't part of the team program and that it made the team more likely to be exposed. Maybe the team mate and the team are clean and he really was reporting doping. Who knows, too many possibilities to say it doesn't add up.
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 10:43

Not doping but Sky related ... fit and proper ?
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39292653
Culture Secretary Karen Bradley has asked regulators to examine Rupert Murdoch's 21st Century Fox's takeover bid for Sky.

Labour MP David Winnick was among those to object to the deal. He said there was no "vendetta" against Mr Murdoch but that "it would be simply unacceptable that the amount of media ownership he already controls should be increased."

Part of Ofcom's investigation will include whether Sky's potential new owners are "fit and proper". Rupert Murdoch and Lachlan Murdoch are both joint chairmen of 21st Century Fox and News Corp while James Murdoch is chief executive of Fox
...
Rupert Murdoch has tried before to take full control of Sky. In 2011 News Corp, which owns The Times and The Sun, made an offer but it was abandoned in the wake of the phone hacking scandal.

The case for Rupert Murdoch's previous takeover bid for Sky was undermined by the revelation that the voicemail of the 13 year-old murdered Milly Dowler's had been hacked, by the News of the World, a Murdoch newspaper.
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 11:35

Cycle Chic wrote:Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....


Why? Because he wanted to show his teammate was being careless with the team wide use of vitamin injectables. The fact that Sky is very happy to feed a young man with hospital grade highly addictive pain killer and cut him loose when he spiraled into depression tells you all you need to know.

It's adds up very well. They weren't fostering youth they were feeding them drugs.
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 11:43

I haven't seen the previous pages, but a question I have been pondering.

Why has Edmondson confessed to this? What is his gain? He is without a ride at the moment and most if not all domestic teams at the moment have a full quota as have most Pro Conti teams,

Is it to clear his conscious and move on and try and get himself established again?

I saw him at the British National CX's and he looked well, but that recent photo he looked like he put some timber on! I've not seen him out riding recently as I live not far from him.
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17 Mar 2017 11:45

The ironic thing, I was told Edmondson was about to sign for Hincaipe's team prior to Sky. Brailsford talked him out of it saying it was a 'dirty name'
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 12:24

MartinGT wrote:The ironic thing, I was told Edmondson was about to sign for Hincaipe's team prior to Sky. Brailsford talked him out of it saying it was a 'dirty name'


Perhaps Brailsford did a Bruyneel and informed other teams not to hire Josh, the statements by Ellington wouod not have helped.

Also good understanding why the Yates brothers didn't go to Sky. Their progression has been more tempered (positive tests aside!).
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 13:55

JRanton wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
JRanton wrote:
Remmie123 wrote:
Singer01 wrote:Edmonsdson, semi confession. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/39293763, he did it without team knowledge, but they allegedly tried to keep it quiet.


Im just watching this on bbc news now, its said the team found a needle and vitamins in his room, but didn't report it due to being "worried about his mental state" and he admitted it to the team but it was covered up.

Another profound example of transparency.


He admits himself he was depressed. Some things are best left unreported. The press would have gone to town on it with no regard for the rider's wellbeing.


Recently they would, but not in 2013 and 2014 when the press were right behind Sky. Who were the journalists writing stories that were querying what Sky were doing? Kimmage and .............?


None of this information was available to the press in 2013 or 2014. That's why they've gone after Sky now. The Fancy Bears hacking took place and then an allegation was made which Sky haven't been able to adequately refute.


The press never went looking. It was obvious Sky were not clean. Wiggins and Froome, 2 domestiques winning GTs at late career ages = not normal. British sports journos jumped on a band wagon in a rush to get book deals.
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 15:27

MatParker117 wrote:
Remmie123 wrote:
Singer01 wrote:Edmonsdson, semi confession. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/39293763, he did it without team knowledge, but they allegedly tried to keep it quiet.


Im just watching this on bbc news now, its said the team found a needle and vitamins in his room, but didn't report it due to being "worried about his mental state" and he admitted it to the team but it was covered up.

Another profound example of transparency.


Steve Peters had a duty of care to him as a rider and as it sounds a patient that for him takes priority and it always should over anti doping rules.


That seems right to me - Strangest think about the Sky/BC issue is the only country taking it seriously is the UK - It barely passes a mention in the European and world media.
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 15:34

AICA ribonucleotide wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:Sky covered up doping. Breaks WADA code for complicity.



I've been wondering about this.
Since the no needles policy is a UCI thing it doesn't come under the WADA code right?


That's my understanding - It's a rule made by a sport's governing body in this case the UCI.
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17 Mar 2017 15:35

There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 15:44

MartinGT wrote:I haven't seen the previous pages, but a question I have been pondering.

Why has Edmondson confessed to this? What is his gain? He is without a ride at the moment and most if not all domestic teams at the moment have a full quota as have most Pro Conti teams,

Is it to clear his conscious and move on and try and get himself established again?

I saw him at the British National CX's and he looked well, but that recent photo he looked like he put some timber on! I've not seen him out riding recently as I live not far from him.


A valid question - Of course ex Sky/BC employees will have the media on the doorstep every day, as this is how the media work -You have to wonder if there is some kind of direct or indirect financial motivation.
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 16:20

yaco wrote:There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.


Investigated by the UCI, well I guess that's case closed because luckily for the sport the UCI is always above board.
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 16:51

BYOP88 wrote:
yaco wrote:There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.


Investigated by the UCI, well I guess that's case closed because luckily for the sport the UCI is always above board.


the public, like Toto, just keep tugging at the damn curtain...
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 17:18

Cycle Chic wrote:Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....

that's rather sad that you're waiting on Diggers opinion
Last edited by rick james on 17 Mar 2017 17:47, edited 1 time in total.
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