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The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Tonton, Pricey_sky, King Boonen

Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 17:39

BYOP88 wrote:
yaco wrote:There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.


Investigated by the UCI, well I guess that's case closed because luckily for the sport the UCI is always above board.


Didn't they say they were going to publish a report in the name of transparency?

Walk the talk. Don't promise if you don't want to deliver.
Electress
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 17:49

Cycle Chic wrote:Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....


Why did LA dump Floyd's BB down the toilet? People do weird things for weird reasons sometimes. Maybe the kid snored too much and his flatmate wanted him out. Who knows? It'll be interesting to see how it works out though.
The poster formerly known as yespatterns.
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 17:50

I do find that this never gets old:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8o7RNL-mHI
budegan
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 19:04

budegan wrote:I do find that this never gets old:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8o7RNL-mHI


Made my day. Thank you.
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 20:42

King Boonen wrote:Just picking up on all this. More Obfuscation by getting people to admit to little indiscretions while ignoring the big ones


in intelligence terms (spooks/spies intelligence)

limited hangout
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 22:35

MartinGT wrote:I haven't seen the previous pages, but a question I have been pondering.

Why has Edmondson confessed to this? What is his gain? He is without a ride at the moment and most if not all domestic teams at the moment have a full quota as have most Pro Conti teams,

Is it to clear his conscious and move on and try and get himself established again?

I saw him at the British National CX's and he looked well, but that recent photo he looked like he put some timber on! I've not seen him out riding recently as I live not far from him.


I don't think that he spoke out because he was looking to gain anything. He's a big talent, but pro bike racing and serious depression are not very compatible. He hasn't raced for more than a few weeks in a season for years. If he was in a position to actually train and race full time, there would be a long list of teams willing to sign him. In the few weeks he actually raced for An Post a couple of years ago, he was extremely good and won a bunch of races but then he disappeared again.

I don't think he would really be in a position to say much about what does or does not go on at Sky, apart from things like his own vitamin injections and tramadol use. He was about as peripheral as you could be and still be on their roster. Presumably nobody, no matter how much they are convinced Sky are dirty, thinks that they are stupid enough to stick every neopro on a team doping regimen as soon as they walk in the door. Nobody is that stupid these days.
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 23:12

rick james wrote:
Cycle Chic wrote:Awaiting Diggers opinion on this one - but why would Edmondsons team mate photograph evidence and report him, if the team are dirty ? it doesnt add up....

that's rather sad that you're waiting on Diggers opinion

I think it's 'rather sad' that a person like me, nobody, is sought after because the media is so pathetic regarding team sky and the british media in particular has been nothing short of cheerleaders with pom poms.
Digger
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Re: Sky

17 Mar 2017 23:29

budegan wrote:I do find that this never gets old:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8o7RNL-mHI

THANK YOU! I'm home sick today from work. LMAO! Never gets old. That and the Hitler one. Funny as ****
thehook
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 23:48

King Boonen wrote:
blackcat wrote: you failed to recognise, that after the USSR and GDR, the depth fell away on the track, the classy riders from the east, like Eki, came across to the road from the track, lots of other Soviet state riders, who would have contested the best riders like Bartko, Mcgee, Wiggins, went to the road. A rider like Raimondas Rumsas would have probably pumped everyone on the track. You can be small, lean, and hammer an IP and TP, see the height/weight of Peter Kennaugh and Jack Bobridge. Kittel and Greipel, would have pumped the Brits, think about Degenkolb, Gretsch, Greipel, Kittel, Martin, they would have lapped the Australians and the Brits and the Kiwis. Especially if Heiko was coaching them.

the money that went into the British track program, was enough for them to dominate the track

caveat: the communist system had a sports talent ID program and sports schools, for their propaganda, effectively equivalent resources that the UK system now funnels.

so, if we view it thru this lens, we can ascertain that the medals and victories, are merely an intersection of economic resources, and catchment of potential athletes(talent pool)


I'm unsure why you've responded to me with this, as you seen to be focussed on anglophone success on the track and I haven't made any assessment of why the anglophone countries have done well on the track or discussed the success of GB cycling's track programme. Diversification applies to all countries competing on the track. I don't disagree that BC have thrown huge amounts of money at a sport where they saw that money equals medals, but GBs success in the IP predates national lottery funding with Hugh Porter, Tony Doyle, Colin Sturgess, Shaun Wallace, Graeme Obree and Chris Boardman all winning multiple medals (Did Boardman receive funding?). I simply highlighted the fact that, when the quote that was being discussed was made, there was ample evidence that GT winners could also be good IP riders. It doesn't mean every good IP rider can win a GT, it just shows the two are certainly not mutually exclusive.

Your comment about the USSR and GDR riders moving away from the track so the depth was removed from the field is confusing when we are discussing the IP, because the USSR won exactly 1 medal in the WC IP, a gold in 1990. Gintautas Umaras won gold at the Olympics in 1988 and I believe that is their only medal in the IP. I don't think the GDR have ever won an IP medal at the WC or the Olympics, and the GDR rank below Sweden in terms of total medals won at the Olympics. The USSR and GDR dominated the medal tables twice, once in 1980 (and it should be obvious why) and in 1988. While they performed well from about 1972 onwards, this is only in the Olympics, not the WC, does not impact the period of time where the quote came from and does not seem to apply to the IP.

The assumption that the current crop of German riders would easily win the TP/IP is simply that, assumption and I don't think bears up to scrutiny. Cavendish could not force his way into the TP squad and he is a more likely candidate than both Kittel and Greipel. Martin, Gretsch and Degenkolb I think could certainly have been/might be good track riders, but track riding in Germany has always been reasonably strong and after the Ullrich affair and German TVs boycott of the TdF I think that if they were going to succeed massively on the track then they would have gone there. I'm sure that, if they wanted to, guys like Martin and Cancellara could have been very, very good IP riders, as could GT winners such as Contador, Evans, Indurain possibly even Basso etc.


If you are going to bring up the break up of the USSR and GDR then you also need to take into account the history of the sport in every country that competes. You need to consider the ban on road racing in the UK that stifled the scene for many years, you need to consider the upheaval in China and their current politics that may be affecting possible riders. You need to consider that cycling is now much more global and more easily accessible which has lead to a resurgence of the Colombian riders. We are finally starting to see some African riders come through the ranks (not the rich, white colonists). Track cycling is prohibitively expensive for many countries that may or may not be able to compete and road cycling can be as well. It all has an effect on the talent pool in all forms of the sport and makes assessment of a persons success against all possible outcomes pretty much impossible. It's why people always say you can only beat who is in front of you.


This has all gone off at a tangent though. So to bring it back to the very original point, and the only point that I, or in fact fmk_rol, was trying to make and that I added a bit more to, there is ample historical precedent to show that people who perform well in the IP can also win GTs, in some cases multiple GTs. This doesn't negate doping at all, we know many of those riders who have done both doped, but it doesn't mean that some super secret extra-strength doping is necessarily required for a rider to make the change (it also doesn't preclude that).


Having framed the original question about IP to GT transformations, I can only pay homage to such considered, knowledgeable and well argued posts....
User avatar The Hegelian
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18 Mar 2017 06:26

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/39306190
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-asks-ukad-to-assess-former-sky-rider-edmondsons-injection-claims/
"Following the report, the UCI said the Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation is in touch with the UK Anti-Doping Agency.

Cycling's governing body said the Anti-Doping Foundation, an independent entity in charge of the sport's anti-doping program, will "assess the matter"."

https://twitter.com/julianknight15/status/842871405872103426
Julian Knight MP Retweetade Dan Roan
Sky appears to have treated this young man with mental health challenges with utter disregard
(Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/mps-urge-government-to-invest-more-on-cycling/019010
"I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate, particularly as I invested in my fourth road bicycle this weekend, much to my wife’s chagrin — Only my fourth." :D )
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/2013/12/29/mayor-elect-de-blasio-controls-his-daughters-story/4220773/
"The up-to-date marketing view is that brands must become publishers, or storytellers, themselves — the most important thing they're selling is, in fact, narrative. It's another step on a road that we've been on for a long time. Functionality, actual products and division of labor give way to a much more disembodied sense of reality, wherein we create and sell an effective fiction. Storytelling is now the highest form of commerce."
Alastair Campbell seems to be helping out his ol' buddy SirDB in this "post truth" age. Though it would be interesting to know why this story was released now.
Kirby, the reason the mute button was invented! :)
LRP - “an angry little man”. “Americanese” - when you want to spread bs
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18 Mar 2017 07:05

"The up-to-date marketing view is that brands must become publishers, or storytellers, themselves — the most important thing they're selling is, in fact, narrative. It's another step on a road that we've been on for a long time. Functionality, actual products and division of labor give way to a much more disembodied sense of reality, wherein we create and sell an effective fiction. Storytelling is now the highest form of commerce."

@Robert5091...nice find, very relevant to Sky. This is what we're being fed, we always have been of course, cultural fictions, but we're bombarded with it now. Sky and Gollum epitomise this.
I linked this short video in the Botlogic thread but it's relevant to your quote...The video even opens with the caption ''The Power of Storytelling'', audience reactions to Mathew Syed's conference on his new book 'Marginal Gummybears':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAyNhMGiXRU
Dan2016
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Re: Sky

18 Mar 2017 09:37

I expect the Murdochs don't want a re-run of the News of the World scandal (see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8634176/Phone-hacking-timeline-of-a-scandal.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_of_the_Worldfor details) which scuppered their last attempt to buy out Sky. Dragging it out in front of MPs (again!) on live TV wont help.

But did they really believe that a cyclist could win the TdF without "doping", or did they just want 3 weeks of cheap TV exposure in July every year and let the team take the blame? Surely they would know it would damage Sky's name? Cynical or incompetent? :confused:
Kirby, the reason the mute button was invented! :)
LRP - “an angry little man”. “Americanese” - when you want to spread bs
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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 14:00

Electress wrote:
BYOP88 wrote:
yaco wrote:There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.


Investigated by the UCI, well I guess that's case closed because luckily for the sport the UCI is always above board.


Didn't they say they were going to publish a report in the name of transparency?

Walk the talk. Don't promise if you don't want to deliver.


Possibly Henao said he doesn't want his private medical information publically released - I know I wouldn't - It's sad that you fail to see you are being nosy demanding Henao NOT SKY release this information.
yaco
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18 Mar 2017 16:21

Lol, Kwiatko is charged to the gills.

Sky winning all WT races again, ffs.
User avatar El Pistolero
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Re:

18 Mar 2017 16:38

El Pistolero wrote:Lol, Kwiatko is charged to the gills.

Sky winning all WT races again, ffs.


it´s always a pleasure seeing Sky win.
this thread always delivers.
teeth gnashing from miles :D
pastronef
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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 16:54

pastronef wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:Lol, Kwiatko is charged to the gills.

Sky winning all WT races again, ffs.


it´s always a pleasure seeing Sky win.
this thread always delivers.
teeth gnashing from miles :D


Sky need more scandals, makes them win more. Could this be an actual strategic game plan by cycling genius Dave Brailsford? :cool:
User avatar thehog
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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 17:53

yaco wrote:
Electress wrote:
BYOP88 wrote:
yaco wrote:There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.


Investigated by the UCI, well I guess that's case closed because luckily for the sport the UCI is always above board.


Didn't they say they were going to publish a report in the name of transparency?

Walk the talk. Don't promise if you don't want to deliver.


Possibly Henao said he doesn't want his private medical information publically released - I know I wouldn't - It's sad that you fail to see you are being nosy demanding Henao NOT SKY release this information.


Yes, he looks concerned about that: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/henao-comes-through-paris-nice-panic-to-beat-contador/
Soggy Chamois
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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 17:57

yaco wrote:
Electress wrote:
BYOP88 wrote:
yaco wrote:There is no need for the public to see Henao's blood values - The case has been investigated by the UCI, and pending charges under the BSP were dropped due to insufficient evidence - The public is so nosy and lack civics.


Investigated by the UCI, well I guess that's case closed because luckily for the sport the UCI is always above board.


Didn't they say they were going to publish a report in the name of transparency?

Walk the talk. Don't promise if you don't want to deliver.


Possibly Henao said he doesn't want his private medical information publically released - I know I wouldn't - It's sad that you fail to see you are being nosy demanding Henao NOT SKY release this information.


Again, don't promise what you can't deliver. Obviously anyone competent would check with the person in question before publicly announcing they would release the report.

To assume they didn't do this and Henao later put the kibosh on this is straining credulity or alleging wild incompetence on the part of SKY.

Much easier explanation? They announced it to posture and backed off it because...of obvious reasons. They never intended to release it.

How many times do you need to see this silly playbook to understand the game?
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Re:

18 Mar 2017 19:40

El Pistolero wrote:Lol, Kwiatko is charged to the gills.

Sky winning all WT races again, ffs.


Yea, he charged over the finish line to win. That's the only charge he was on !!
Zypherov
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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 20:03

Zypherov wrote:
El Pistolero wrote:Lol, Kwiatko is charged to the gills.

Sky winning all WT races again, ffs.


Yea, he charged over the finish line to win. That's the only charge he was on !!


I think David Walsh will disagree. He claimed Sky were not doping as they were not winning classics! Now 2 in March!

:lol:
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