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The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

21 Oct 2017 23:06

samhocking wrote:Well the scope of UKAD's investigation is Daily Mail's 'allegation of wrongdoing in cycling'. Clearly it can't be one of anti-doping using those words, so expecting something more and not getting it doesn't suggest whitewash alone. The most it can be about is did Fluamicil get injected or did it get nebulized and if injected - who authorised it. 8 to 30 days suspension for an already retired Wiggins and a fine for Team Sky will be the most exciting it can possibly get while remaining within the remit of what an ADO is allowed to investigate.


I disagree. I should expect that the investigation would look at both the specific incidents (flumuicil and testosterone etc.) but also whether Sky's governance wrt doping was fit for purpose, and whether there is any evidence that the team management and management structures created a climate in which such incidents were enabled through incompetence (systems were crap; people were crap at adhering to them) or 'omerta' (systems / assurance / enforcement deliberately poor; people ignored rules with impunity - don't look, don't find etc.).

Does anyone know what the 'burden of proof' is for these kind of enquiries? i.e. is this a 'criminal court' kind of requirement - beyond reasonable doubt - or more like a small claims court - i.e. balance of probabilities?

My guess is we'll find a 'serious questions to answer' kind of tone, but with 'no evidence of doping violations. Overall conclusion - need to strength systems and culture to address shortcomings etc etc. All nicely passive voice, third person (stuff happened but no-one actually did it), i.e. no one going to be held to account.
Electress
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22 Oct 2017 08:49

SDB has thrown Freeman under the bus and the hub so it's not surprising he's"sick". :D

The Murdochs have very deep pockets so without a whistleblower, the UKAD & CMS investigations are not going much further IMO. These people have no qualms bribing senior policemen etc remember.
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Re:

22 Oct 2017 12:34

samhocking wrote:The DM allegation is Wiggins was injected (we assume with Fluimicil given UKAD allowed Brailsford to say what it was in a letter handed to him) just 1 month after UCI introduced no-needle policy at Giro. Even if Sky didn't contort their story in those first few days so randomly, injecting Fluimcil is clearly not turning 2x donkeys into (dominant) GT winners as you put it, any more than a TUE for Triamcinolone does either. We know both substances are used by those competing against Sky, so where is the difference? This is what I mean by the scope of the UKAD investigation. Hoping for anything more than an injection of Fluimicil after Dauphine is just that given what the allegation's scope in the first place is.


No Way. Do you really truly think it was Fluimicil? Unbloodybelievable. Sky sent for this 7 euro product all the way from the Manchester velodrome which they could have got from the closest pharmacy? WOW talk about living in denial.
Craigee
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Re:

22 Oct 2017 12:38

[quote="Robert5091"]SDB has thrown Freeman under the bus and the hub so it's not surprising he's"sick". :D


That's what Sociopaths do isn't it?
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22 Oct 2017 14:22

It's next to impossible for UKAD to charge Sky over the 'mystery package' unless they have indisputable evidence of the contents of the package. The CMS committee is irrelevant because it's merely a chance for blind and deaf politicians to gain there 15 minutes of fame.


P
yaco
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Re:

26 Oct 2017 15:18

yaco wrote:It's next to impossible for UKAD to charge Sky over the 'mystery package' unless they have indisputable evidence of the contents of the package. The CMS committee is irrelevant because it's merely a chance for blind and deaf politicians to gain there 15 minutes of fame.

It's next to impossible Wiggins won without doping
ditto Froome.
User avatar TourOfSardinia
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Re:

26 Oct 2017 19:53

yaco wrote:It's next to impossible for UKAD to charge Sky over the 'mystery package' unless they have indisputable evidence of the contents of the package. The CMS committee is irrelevant because it's merely a chance for blind and deaf politicians to gain there 15 minutes of fame.


P


and yet, they have shed a light into where the anti doping agencies have not

not bad for a bunch of cretins who have a different day job....
gillan1969
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Re: Sky

27 Oct 2017 07:16

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bernal-ready-to-step-up-to-worldtour-level-with-team-sky/

So according to this Savio knows the Dawg's VO2Max numbers

"When he was 19 he had a VO2max of 88.8ml/kg. To make a comparison, Froome at 22 was 84.6, and in 2016 was at 88.2," Savio recently told La Gazzetta dello Sport during a visit to Bernal's Italian base near Rivarolo Canavese, north of Turin.


:rolleyes:
User avatar MartinGT
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Re: Re:

27 Oct 2017 12:30

gillan1969 wrote:
yaco wrote:It's next to impossible for UKAD to charge Sky over the 'mystery package' unless they have indisputable evidence of the contents of the package. The CMS committee is irrelevant because it's merely a chance for blind and deaf politicians to gain there 15 minutes of fame.


P


and yet, they have shed a light into where the anti doping agencies have not

not bad for a bunch of cretins who have a different day job....


The same cretins who were cheerleaders during this whole reign of suspicious activities by Sky and British Cycling.

The same cretins who at the same time generously funded these organisations.

The same cretins who are now grandstanding to gain popular support.

Let's see if and what changes are made to Sky and British Cycling.
yaco
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Re: Sky

27 Oct 2017 13:16

MartinGT wrote:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bernal-ready-to-step-up-to-worldtour-level-with-team-sky/

So according to this Savio knows the Dawg's VO2Max numbers

"When he was 19 he had a VO2max of 88.8ml/kg. To make a comparison, Froome at 22 was 84.6, and in 2016 was at 88.2," Savio recently told La Gazzetta dello Sport during a visit to Bernal's Italian base near Rivarolo Canavese, north of Turin.


:rolleyes:


Nah, Savio just mentions the GSK study, 84.6mL/kg/min is Froome result corrected from 70kg to TdF weight into 88.2 mL/kg/min, with an asterisk saying "Assumes maintenance of absolute VRO2peak at lower weight" :rolleyes:
Gregga
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Re:

28 Oct 2017 01:17

samhocking wrote:The DM allegation is Wiggins was injected (we assume with Fluimicil given UKAD allowed Brailsford to say what it was in a letter handed to him) just 1 month after UCI introduced no-needle policy at Giro. Even if Sky didn't contort their story in those first few days so randomly, injecting Fluimcil is clearly not turning 2x donkeys into (dominant) GT winners as you put it, any more than a TUE for Triamcinolone does either. We know both substances are used by those competing against Sky, so where is the difference? This is what I mean by the scope of the UKAD investigation. Hoping for anything more than an injection of Fluimicil after Dauphine is just that given what the allegation's scope in the first place is.


Image

Don't give up! :lol:

If nothing but fluimicil really was transported all the way from Manchester then serious questions need to be asked about WTF BC and Sky are doing with their lottery funding. If such frivolous courier trips can be made instead of a 5 minute drive to the local pharmacy, who knows what other ways government directed funds are being misappropriated...
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Re: Re:

28 Oct 2017 07:52

42x16ss wrote:
samhocking wrote:The DM allegation is Wiggins was injected (we assume with Fluimicil given UKAD allowed Brailsford to say what it was in a letter handed to him) just 1 month after UCI introduced no-needle policy at Giro. Even if Sky didn't contort their story in those first few days so randomly, injecting Fluimcil is clearly not turning 2x donkeys into (dominant) GT winners as you put it, any more than a TUE for Triamcinolone does either. We know both substances are used by those competing against Sky, so where is the difference? This is what I mean by the scope of the UKAD investigation. Hoping for anything more than an injection of Fluimicil after Dauphine is just that given what the allegation's scope in the first place is.


Image

Don't give up! :lol:

If nothing but fluimicil really was transported all the way from Manchester then serious questions need to be asked about WTF BC and Sky are doing with their lottery funding. If such frivolous courier trips can be made instead of a 5 minute drive to the local pharmacy, who knows what other ways government directed funds are being misappropriated...


even more simply....if it was nothing but fluimicil there would not be a story, not even a inkling of one, we would not even be here and we would not be having a parliamentary investigation.........
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

28 Oct 2017 07:53

yaco wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
yaco wrote:It's next to impossible for UKAD to charge Sky over the 'mystery package' unless they have indisputable evidence of the contents of the package. The CMS committee is irrelevant because it's merely a chance for blind and deaf politicians to gain there 15 minutes of fame.


P


and yet, they have shed a light into where the anti doping agencies have not

not bad for a bunch of cretins who have a different day job....


The same cretins who were cheerleaders during this whole reign of suspicious activities by Sky and British Cycling.

The same cretins who at the same time generously funded these organisations.

The same cretins who are now grandstanding to gain popular support.

Let's see if and what changes are made to Sky and British Cycling.


as the old saying goes...even a broken clock is correct twice a day....
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

28 Oct 2017 13:21

gillan1969 wrote:
yaco wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
yaco wrote:It's next to impossible for UKAD to charge Sky over the 'mystery package' unless they have indisputable evidence of the contents of the package. The CMS committee is irrelevant because it's merely a chance for blind and deaf politicians to gain there 15 minutes of fame.


P


and yet, they have shed a light into where the anti doping agencies have not

not bad for a bunch of cretins who have a different day job....


The same cretins who were cheerleaders during this whole reign of suspicious activities by Sky and British Cycling.

The same cretins who at the same time generously funded these organisations.

The same cretins who are now grandstanding to gain popular support.

Let's see if and what changes are made to Sky and British Cycling.


as the old saying goes...even a broken clock is correct twice a day....


Unfortunately the truth hurts. Anyway you continue to have faith in politicians and Governments. The evidence is overwhelming that in some occasions they enable doping.
yaco
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Re: Re:

28 Oct 2017 13:40

yaco wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
yaco wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
yaco wrote:It's next to impossible for UKAD to charge Sky over the 'mystery package' unless they have indisputable evidence of the contents of the package. The CMS committee is irrelevant because it's merely a chance for blind and deaf politicians to gain there 15 minutes of fame.


P


and yet, they have shed a light into where the anti doping agencies have not

not bad for a bunch of cretins who have a different day job....


The same cretins who were cheerleaders during this whole reign of suspicious activities by Sky and British Cycling.

The same cretins who at the same time generously funded these organisations.

The same cretins who are now grandstanding to gain popular support.

Let's see if and what changes are made to Sky and British Cycling.


as the old saying goes...even a broken clock is correct twice a day....


Unfortunately the truth hurts. Anyway you continue to have faith in politicians and Governments. The evidence is overwhelming that in some occasions they enable doping.


Damian Collins is not the government. He is 1 politician who appears to be doing his job correctly, for a change and no doubt to further his career in the process. If that benefits the sport by exposing frauds and cheats, hurrah!
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Re: Re:

28 Oct 2017 13:55

yaco wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
yaco wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
yaco wrote:It's next to impossible for UKAD to charge Sky over the 'mystery package' unless they have indisputable evidence of the contents of the package. The CMS committee is irrelevant because it's merely a chance for blind and deaf politicians to gain there 15 minutes of fame.


P


and yet, they have shed a light into where the anti doping agencies have not

not bad for a bunch of cretins who have a different day job....


The same cretins who were cheerleaders during this whole reign of suspicious activities by Sky and British Cycling.

The same cretins who at the same time generously funded these organisations.

The same cretins who are now grandstanding to gain popular support.

Let's see if and what changes are made to Sky and British Cycling.


as the old saying goes...even a broken clock is correct twice a day....


Unfortunately the truth hurts. Anyway you continue to have faith in politicians and Governments. The evidence is overwhelming that in some occasions they enable doping.


i'm not sure you quite get the meaning of the "old saying"...it specifically, in this instance, means that I have no faith but that occasionally they get something right.......
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

28 Oct 2017 13:59

Benotti69 wrote:Damian Collins is not the government. He is 1 politician who appears to be doing his job correctly, for a change and no doubt to further his career in the process. If that benefits the sport by exposing frauds and cheats, hurrah!

agreed.
I hope he manages to stay on the same track he's been on in the past couple of months which has been like a breath of fresh air amidst so much corruption and so many people within UK Sports taking the piss and insulting our brains.
I hope he stays true and if he does I thoroughly hope he benefits from it career-wise, although if he does bring the house down, I doubt it will make him many friends.

Either way, without his efforts we would be in one dark **** place right now.
sniper
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15 Nov 2017 11:09

UKAD's extensive investigation into the package (sometimes referred to "the Jiffy bag") delivered to Team Sky during the 2011 Critérium du Dauphiné cycling race in France has concluded.

No anti-doping charges will be brought in relation to the package as a result of that investigation and all interested parties have been informed accordingly. This will remain the case unless new and material evidence were to come to light.
Deets
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15 Nov 2017 11:40

Sky's response:
UK Anti-Doping has today confirmed that it does not intend to bring forward any anti-doping charges in relation to its investigation into issues around the 2011 Criterium du Dauphine. This investigation has now been brought to a close.

We are pleased that UK Anti-Doping have concluded their investigation and that they will not be taking any further action.

We have always maintained that there was no wrongdoing and we have co-operated fully with UK Anti-Doping over the last year.

Since our inception as a new pro cycling team in 2010 we have continually strengthened our systems and processes so they best support our strong commitment to anti-doping.
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15 Nov 2017 11:42

BC's response:
UKAD’s findings represent an organisation and culture that, despite delivering on the world stage, did not meet the high standards that British Cycling today holds itself to. We note that UKAD have referred information arising from their investigation to the General Medical Council and we offer them our wholehearted cooperation.
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