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The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 16:51

Bronstein wrote:
Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:According to the flat TT analysis I made quite some time ago, Froome made an approximately 15% boost to his FTP. Error bars are pretty big, ~5%, but the results were statistically significant based on a paired T-test. This change occurred over a three week period and was permanent. The only thing left to fight over is which explanation fits best.

I've told you the best explanation several times. Riders who aren't specialists or challenging for GC don't ride full gas in Time Trials. Your analysis is fatally flawed. The fact that you won't even consider this option says more about you than it does about Froome.


Seems appropriate to post this again:

'Full gas' TT results (championship or final stage):

B World Championships 2007 - 2nd (behind TT monster Mai Haijun)
U23 World Championships 2007 - 41st
Giro del Capo 2008 Stage 5 - 7th
Giro 2009 Stage 21 - 31st
World Championships 2009 - 17th
Eneco Tour 2010 Stage 7 - 71st

UK National Championships 2010 - 2nd (no World Tour/Pro Continental riders outside the top three)
Commonwealth Games 2010 - 5th (behind a 19-year-old Durbridge and 'Dr Hutch')
Vuelta a Murcia 2011 - 18th
Tour de Suisse 2011 - 9th


One top ten against strong opposition (bolded). Failed to win a single TT against even relatively weak opposition.

By way of comparison, his Grand Tour ITT results from the 2011 Vuelta onwards: 2, 11, 2, 3, 2, 1, 10, 63, 39, 2, 1, 1, 6, 3.

Nothing short of a Jekyll and Hyde transformation.


Maybe parker is right and Froome really was saving his energy at the World Championships in 2009 and 2007 and the last stage of the Giro in 09 and at the Commonwealth games.
User avatar The Hitch
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 17:16

The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.
Parker
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 17:25

Parker wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.


and it is very more unusual for a kenyan-south african rider, with no experience and little knowledge to adapt and learn so fast, compared to riders who are already training and racing with top teams from when they were Juniors in their home countries
pastronef
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 17:29

pastronef wrote:
and it is very more unusual for a kenyan-south african rider, with no experience and little knowledge to adapt and learn so fast, compared to riders who are already training and racing with top teams from when they were Juniors in their home countries

Are you suggesting that the Economics Department at Johannesburg University isn't a traditional place for an aspiring pro cyclist to learn his trade?
Parker
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 17:38

Parker wrote:
pastronef wrote:
and it is very more unusual for a kenyan-south african rider, with no experience and little knowledge to adapt and learn so fast, compared to riders who are already training and racing with top teams from when they were Juniors in their home countries

Are you suggesting that the Economics Department at Johannesburg University isn't a traditional place for an aspiring pro cyclist to learn his trade?


Europe is a traditional place to learn cycling
pastronef
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 17:43

Parker wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.


By who?
Bronstein
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 17:54

Bronstein wrote:
By who?

Claudio Corti the boss of Barloworld for one. The British cycling media made out that he was a future GC contender when he changed nationality. The one vague contact I had in cycling at the time also said it.
Parker
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14 Nov 2017 19:00

I must be reading something different - My interpretation is Deviant is clearly stating that Froome is using a variety of substances - some legal/some banned which accounts for some of his improved performance - I also suspect Deviant is implying Froome is using new substances which aren't even on WADA's radar yet, which in coming years may be banned - It's like some here are arguing with themselves.
yaco
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 19:00

Parker wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
Ok, but if we follow your logic (which I agree with) then we also have to admit that Froome was both a) riding full gas and b) well rested compared to rivals and c) focusing entirely on that stage in the 2008 Alpe d'huez stage. And yet he only came 32nd and considered that some sort of great accomplishment.

A few years later he is very ill, so much so that he is just "hanging on" and is focusing on the gc the entire race, and has expanded a lot of energy riding harder throughout the race. And on the same mountain he rides both much better relative to his competition and faster objectively speaking.

Its cos everyone else stopped doping right?

No. Although that helps.

In 2008 he was a first year pro who had never done a stage race bigger than the Tour of Britain before riding on shoestring team with no coaching. And, according to him, he didn't eat properly. Even so he showed in that Tour that he could be climb and time trial well and was generally thought of as a future GC rider.

He didn't ride it again until his sixth season. The time you mention was his eighth season.

Now here's a little secret for you - you may notice it yourself as you learn more about the sport. Cyclists progress physically and mentally through the early years of their career. It's very unusual for any champion to be a world beater in their first season. In fact almost unheard of.


I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!
User avatar Blanco
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 19:13

Blanco wrote:
I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!

He wasn't anonymous. You just didn't notice him. For example, he had steadily improved throughout 2011 with promising but erratic performances.

If you think it is all down to doping why has no-one else done it in the same time frame? I mean, there's this outsider from a non-cycling country with no contacts and little money who somehow gets a doping programme that takes him from 'pack-fodder' (not my phrase) to a consistent champion. And no-one else does it? That's the most unbelievable story of them all.
Parker
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 19:27

Parker wrote:
Blanco wrote:
I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!

He wasn't anonymous. You just didn't notice him. For example, he had steadily improved throughout 2011 with promising but erratic performances.

If you think it is all down to doping why has no-one else done it in the same time frame? I mean, there's this outsider from a non-cycling country with no contacts and little money who somehow gets a doping programme that takes him from 'pack-fodder' (not my phrase) to a consistent champion. And no-one else does it? That's the most unbelievable story of them all.


According to David Walsh he once beat Tour de France champion Alberto Contador on a mountain top finish. Forget the fact that it was a 4km climb in a 2.2 race and Contador punctured 3 Times! :lol:
User avatar thehog
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 19:32

Parker wrote:
Blanco wrote:
I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!

He wasn't anonymous. You just didn't notice him. For example, he had steadily improved throughout 2011 with promising but erratic performances.

If you think it is all down to doping why has no-one else done it in the same time frame? I mean, there's this outsider from a non-cycling country with no contacts and little money who somehow gets a doping programme that takes him from 'pack-fodder' (not my phrase) to a consistent champion. And no-one else does it? That's the most unbelievable story of them all.


You not followed this sport for long have you. Joined in 2010?

How come Lance won 7 in a row and no else was doing it?

By the way he was anonymous. He only got to ride the '11 Vuelta due to a team rider being ill and having to pull out. Froome couldn't even make the team of the 3rd important GT in what you claim was not an anonymous season for him. I suppose Sky just didn't notice Froome. :lol:
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 21:29

Parker wrote:
Blanco wrote:
I think that is a little more unusual for any champion to be totally anonymous for 4 years and 8 months, and then BANG, he gets 2nd at La Vuelta, and ends up winning 4 Tours + Vuelta in only five years. In fact I think it is unheard of!

He wasn't anonymous. You just didn't notice him. For example, he had steadily improved throughout 2011 with promising but erratic performances.

If you think it is all down to doping why has no-one else done it in the same time frame? I mean, there's this outsider from a non-cycling country with no contacts and little money who somehow gets a doping programme that takes him from 'pack-fodder' (not my phrase) to a consistent champion. And no-one else does it? That's the most unbelievable story of them all.


He was anonymous, for a guy who will end up on a GT podium. Ian Boswell for example is a mega-prospect rider nowadays, comparing to Froome back then.

And no, I don't think it is all down to doping, at least to regular doping. Although it started with that. And then the motors came... And protection from highest places possible, like with some American fellow not so long ago. That's why no one else does it, like no one did in Armstrong era, yet everybody doped. The protection is the key here. And it's not unbelievable story at all, we've seen it before. Although the motors thing is new.., I guess.
User avatar Blanco
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 21:54

Blanco wrote:He was anonymous, for a guy who will end up on a GT podium. Ian Boswell for example is a mega-prospect rider nowadays, comparing to Froome back then.

Boswell has been a pro for five seasons. Froome had two GC runner-up spots by then. In his first season Froome scored 253 points on the CQ Rankings (high for a debutant). Boswell has never scored that many

Blanco wrote:And no, I don't think it is all down to doping, at least to regular doping. Although it started with that. And then the motors came... And protection from highest places possible, like with some American fellow not so long ago. That's why no one else does it, like no one did in Armstrong era, yet everybody doped. The protection is the key here. And it's not unbelievable story at all, we've seen it before. Although the motors thing is new.., I guess.

So this anonymous rider, out of contract at Sky managed to get 'protection from the highest places possible'. Take a step back and think about how stupid you sound. If your conspiracy doesn't make sense, adding another layer of conspiracy won't make it more sensible.
Parker
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 22:07

Bronstein wrote:
Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:According to the flat TT analysis I made quite some time ago, Froome made an approximately 15% boost to his FTP. Error bars are pretty big, ~5%, but the results were statistically significant based on a paired T-test. This change occurred over a three week period and was permanent. The only thing left to fight over is which explanation fits best.

I've told you the best explanation several times. Riders who aren't specialists or challenging for GC don't ride full gas in Time Trials. Your analysis is fatally flawed. The fact that you won't even consider this option says more about you than it does about Froome.


Seems appropriate to post this again:

'Full gas' TT results (championship or final stage):

B World Championships 2007 - 2nd (behind TT monster Mai Haijun)
U23 World Championships 2007 - 41st
Giro del Capo 2008 Stage 5 - 7th
Giro 2009 Stage 21 - 31st
World Championships 2009 - 17th
Eneco Tour 2010 Stage 7 - 71st

UK National Championships 2010 - 2nd (no World Tour/Pro Continental riders outside the top three)
Commonwealth Games 2010 - 5th (behind a 19-year-old Durbridge and 'Dr Hutch')
Vuelta a Murcia 2011 - 18th
Tour de Suisse 2011 - 9th


One top ten against strong opposition (bolded). Failed to win a single TT against even relatively weak opposition.

By way of comparison, his Grand Tour ITT results from the 2011 Vuelta onwards: 2, 11, 2, 3, 2, 1, 10, 63, 39, 2, 1, 1, 6, 3.

Nothing short of a Jekyll and Hyde transformation.

behind TT monster Mai Haijun....I spit my coffee all over the computer screen...bravo that made my day :)

I think the TT rresults show how ludicrous the transformation was. If the sudden GT prowess isn't enough that is.
noddy69
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 22:13

noddy69 wrote:behind TT monster Mai Haijun....I spit my coffee all over the computer screen...bravo that made my day :)

I think the TT rresults show how ludicrous the transformation was. If the sudden GT prowess isn't enough that is.

The following month Haijun did the Olympic test event time trial, where he finished only 5 seconds behind Nibali (and only a minute behind three time world champion Mick Rogers). He was good rider.

As for Froome he finished 14th in the final TT of the Tour de France in his debut season. There was clear TT talent there.
Parker
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 22:26

Parker wrote:
Blanco wrote:He was anonymous, for a guy who will end up on a GT podium. Ian Boswell for example is a mega-prospect rider nowadays, comparing to Froome back then.

Boswell has been a pro for five seasons. Froome had two GC runner-up spots by then. In his first season Froome scored 253 points on the CQ Rankings (high for a debutant). Boswell has never scored that many

Blanco wrote:And no, I don't think it is all down to doping, at least to regular doping. Although it started with that. And then the motors came... And protection from highest places possible, like with some American fellow not so long ago. That's why no one else does it, like no one did in Armstrong era, yet everybody doped. The protection is the key here. And it's not unbelievable story at all, we've seen it before. Although the motors thing is new.., I guess.

So this anonymous rider, out of contract at Sky managed to get 'protection from the highest places possible'. Take a step back and think about how stupid you sound. If your conspiracy doesn't make sense, adding another layer of conspiracy won't make it more sensible.


Go back a little and read more carefully. I said it started with regular doping (at La Vuelta, in his own and Michelle's arrangement). After that he gets protection from almighty Sky empire as Wiggins wingman, but it becomes apparent that he reacts much better to program than Wiggo. And so in 2013 comes the motors thing, because they were afraid of Contador who didn't race at the Tour 2012, but won Vuelta right after his return (beating Froome in the process). After that is a stuff of legends :lol:
User avatar Blanco
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Re: Re:

14 Nov 2017 22:36

Blanco wrote:
Go back a little and read more carefully. I said it started with regular doping (at La Vuelta, in his own and Michelle's arrangement). After that he gets protection from almighty Sky empire as Wiggins wingman, but it becomes apparent that he reacts much better to program than Wiggo. And so in 2013 comes the motors thing, because they were afraid of Contador who didn't race at the Tour 2012, but won Vuelta right after his return (beating Froome in the process). After that is a stuff of legends :lol:

Oh, god. This is all about some Contador fandom is it? I suppose the other riders that beat Contador in 2013 all had motors too. And everyone who has beaten him since.
Parker
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 00:59

noddy69 wrote:
Bronstein wrote:
Parker wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:According to the flat TT analysis I made quite some time ago, Froome made an approximately 15% boost to his FTP. Error bars are pretty big, ~5%, but the results were statistically significant based on a paired T-test. This change occurred over a three week period and was permanent. The only thing left to fight over is which explanation fits best.

I've told you the best explanation several times. Riders who aren't specialists or challenging for GC don't ride full gas in Time Trials. Your analysis is fatally flawed. The fact that you won't even consider this option says more about you than it does about Froome.


Seems appropriate to post this again:

'Full gas' TT results (championship or final stage):

B World Championships 2007 - 2nd (behind TT monster Mai Haijun)
U23 World Championships 2007 - 41st
Giro del Capo 2008 Stage 5 - 7th
Giro 2009 Stage 21 - 31st
World Championships 2009 - 17th
Eneco Tour 2010 Stage 7 - 71st

UK National Championships 2010 - 2nd (no World Tour/Pro Continental riders outside the top three)
Commonwealth Games 2010 - 5th (behind a 19-year-old Durbridge and 'Dr Hutch')
Vuelta a Murcia 2011 - 18th
Tour de Suisse 2011 - 9th


One top ten against strong opposition (bolded). Failed to win a single TT against even relatively weak opposition.

By way of comparison, his Grand Tour ITT results from the 2011 Vuelta onwards: 2, 11, 2, 3, 2, 1, 10, 63, 39, 2, 1, 1, 6, 3.

Nothing short of a Jekyll and Hyde transformation.

behind TT monster Mai Haijun....I spit my coffee all over the computer screen...bravo that made my day :)

I think the TT rresults show how ludicrous the transformation was. If the sudden GT prowess isn't enough that is.


No mention of his mighty 2006 Commonwealth Games effort in sandshoes? :cool:
User avatar thehog
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15 Nov 2017 02:51

Is Parker really being serious? I am not sure! :confused:
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