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Froome Talk Only

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 13:42

thehog wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:
Current temperature in southern france between 29 and 33 degrees. Definitely arm warmer kind of weather.


Not exactly... that's pretty darn hot! And claiming they're hiding needle-marks is too obvious, so there's gonna be some benefit in the arm warmers themselves.

:cool:


Try to keep up. Arm warmers are not to hide the needle marks they are because you get a bad case of the "chills" after a blood transfusion. Hamilton explained the clearly in his book along with it being a medical fact.

Image


Still too obvious!
Aka The Ginger One.
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 13:48

RedheadDane wrote:
thehog wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:
Current temperature in southern france between 29 and 33 degrees. Definitely arm warmer kind of weather.


Not exactly... that's pretty darn hot! And claiming they're hiding needle-marks is too obvious, so there's gonna be some benefit in the arm warmers themselves.

:cool:


Try to keep up. Arm warmers are not to hide the needle marks they are because you get a bad case of the "chills" after a blood transfusion. Hamilton explained the clearly in his book along with it being a medical fact.

Image


Still too obvious!


The effects don't last though. It's just that you've literally lowered your body temperature by introducing a liter of very cold fluid. Once you warm up again, you're good to go.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 13:58

ScienceIsCool wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:
thehog wrote:
RedheadDane wrote:
Current temperature in southern france between 29 and 33 degrees. Definitely arm warmer kind of weather.


Not exactly... that's pretty darn hot! And claiming they're hiding needle-marks is too obvious, so there's gonna be some benefit in the arm warmers themselves.

:cool:


Try to keep up. Arm warmers are not to hide the needle marks they are because you get a bad case of the "chills" after a blood transfusion. Hamilton explained the clearly in his book along with it being a medical fact.

Image


Still too obvious!


The effects don't last though. It's just that you've literally lowered your body temperature by introducing a liter of very cold fluid. Once you warm up again, you're good to go.

John Swanson


Has nothing to do with body temperature. If you receive a transfusion the morning of, around 24 hours you'll feel the symptoms of the newly injected blood and if in hospital you'd be treated by keep warm for that period up to 3 days. It's doesn't wear off quickly as you suggest.
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17 Jul 2017 14:39

We saw the needle and bandaid mark on Bardet's arm the other day.
Froome and some others with long sleeves on rest days.
Needles are still en vogue. And understandably so!
Stage 12 showed you can't rely on your motor to work for you all the time.

And meanwhile bike and wheel changes are turning into a no-go.
It's so naughties, when literally nobody was paying attention to them (see Floyd).
Now they're raising too many eyebrows.
We had Cipo commenting on Contador in the Giro.
Jalabert and the French now bullying Froome.
All because of those innocent bike/wheel swaps.

So it's a long way to go before we can discard the good old needle and high octane doping.
Last edited by sniper on 17 Jul 2017 15:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 14:58

thehog wrote:
Has nothing to do with body temperature. If you receive a transfusion the morning of, around 24 hours you'll feel the symptoms of the newly injected blood and if in hospital you'd be treated by keep warm for that period up to 3 days. It's doesn't wear off quickly as you suggest.


Where did you get that from? ~10% of patients develop a fever, but I've never heard that you get the chills (would mean you're either hypothermic or have a fever) that lasts for a few days. https://www.pathology.med.umich.edu/bloodbank/manual/bbch_7/

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 17:39

ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
Has nothing to do with body temperature. If you receive a transfusion the morning of, around 24 hours you'll feel the symptoms of the newly injected blood and if in hospital you'd be treated by keep warm for that period up to 3 days. It's doesn't wear off quickly as you suggest.


Where did you get that from? ~10% of patients develop a fever, but I've never heard that you get the chills (would mean you're either hypothermic or have a fever) that lasts for a few days. https://www.pathology.med.umich.edu/bloodbank/manual/bbch_7/

John Swanson


You can type into google “symptoms of blood transfusion” and chills comes up every time, plus every cyclist who has talked about it like Hamilton, Jascke states they get the “chills”. Is that hard to understand?

Transfusion reaction symptoms include:
back pain.
dark urine.
chills.
fainting or dizziness.
fever.
flank pain.
skin flushing.
shortness of breath.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

17 Jul 2017 18:28

MartinGT wrote:Listening to Lance's Stages podcast. In the latest one he seems confused at how many mechanicals Dawg has. Then the co-presenter asks what it could be. LA says it could Pinarello, Shimano or many other things.

Why doesnt any of his team mates have so many mechanicals?


That is what I was wondering. One would think that Froome's bike would be the one getting the serious going over after every stage to make sure everything is in order. Quite strange.
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 18:32

thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
Has nothing to do with body temperature. If you receive a transfusion the morning of, around 24 hours you'll feel the symptoms of the newly injected blood and if in hospital you'd be treated by keep warm for that period up to 3 days. It's doesn't wear off quickly as you suggest.


Where did you get that from? ~10% of patients develop a fever, but I've never heard that you get the chills (would mean you're either hypothermic or have a fever) that lasts for a few days. https://www.pathology.med.umich.edu/bloodbank/manual/bbch_7/

John Swanson


You can type into google “symptoms of blood transfusion” and chills comes up every time, plus every cyclist who has talked about it like Hamilton, Jascke states they get the “chills”. Is that hard to understand?

Transfusion reaction symptoms include:
back pain.
dark urine.
chills.
fainting or dizziness.
fever.
flank pain.
skin flushing.
shortness of breath.


I'm guessing you got that from here... Very authoritative, unlike what I gave. http://www.healthline.com/health/transfusion-reaction-hemolytic

Horrible to think about all those riders gasping, fainting and peeing black goo. I guess those arm warmers fix that up too.

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17 Jul 2017 18:36

Like I said.

Quote: "Cause: Fever and chills during transfusion are thought to be caused by recipient antibodies reacting with white cell antigens or white cell fragments in the blood product or due to cytokines which accumulate in the blood product during storage. Fever occurs more commonly with platelet transfusion (10-30%) than red cell transfusion (1-2%)."

http://www.rch.org.au/bloodtrans/adverse_effects/Adverse_effects_of_transfusion/

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Re:

17 Jul 2017 18:54

sniper wrote:We saw the needle and bandaid mark on Bardet's arm the other day.
Froome and some others with long sleeves on rest days.
Needles are still en vogue. And understandably so!
Stage 12 showed you can't rely on your motor to work for you all the time.

And meanwhile bike and wheel changes are turning into a no-go.
It's so naughties, when literally nobody was paying attention to them (see Floyd).
Now they're raising too many eyebrows.
We had Cipo commenting on Contador in the Giro.
Jalabert and the French now bullying Froome.
All because of those innocent bike/wheel swaps.

So it's a long way to go before we can discard the good old needle and high octane doping.


To be fair, a needle and band-aid mark could come from a blood test by anti-doping testers. I would think a guy not hiding such would maybe be more likely for it to have come from a test, while a guy getting a transfusion would make an attempt to cover the mark.
Last edited by Beech Mtn on 17 Jul 2017 18:55, edited 1 time in total.
Benotti69 wrote:I don't believe anything from Astana any more than Sky.
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Re:

17 Jul 2017 18:54

ScienceIsCool wrote:Like I said.

Quote: "Cause: Fever and chills during transfusion are thought to be caused by recipient antibodies reacting with white cell antigens or white cell fragments in the blood product or due to cytokines which accumulate in the blood product during storage. Fever occurs more commonly with platelet transfusion (10-30%) than red cell transfusion (1-2%)."

http://www.rch.org.au/bloodtrans/adverse_effects/Adverse_effects_of_transfusion/

John Swanson


So Hamilton lied. Good to know. Excellent work :cool:
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17 Jul 2017 19:40

I know this is off topic, but Matt DeCanio is going off in the CN Comments section!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cannondale-drapac-optimistic-of-securing-new-sponsor-before-end-of-tour-de-france/#comment-3421275693

His perspective is worth reading!
Darryl Webster wrote:
"Nothing seems to blind peeps as much as patriotism does it!"
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 19:55

thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
Has nothing to do with body temperature. If you receive a transfusion the morning of, around 24 hours you'll feel the symptoms of the newly injected blood and if in hospital you'd be treated by keep warm for that period up to 3 days. It's doesn't wear off quickly as you suggest.


Where did you get that from? ~10% of patients develop a fever, but I've never heard that you get the chills (would mean you're either hypothermic or have a fever) that lasts for a few days. https://www.pathology.med.umich.edu/bloodbank/manual/bbch_7/

John Swanson


You can type into google “symptoms of blood transfusion” and chills comes up every time, plus every cyclist who has talked about it like Hamilton, Jascke states they get the “chills”. Is that hard to understand?

Transfusion reaction symptoms include:
back pain.
dark urine.
chills.
fainting or dizziness.
fever.
flank pain.
skin flushing.
shortness of breath.


The symptoms you are referring to are as a result of incompatible blood transfusions and can be a serious, even life threatening event.
Having that said a lot of patients, particularly those that receive blood cooler than room temperature often complain of feeling cold or having a cold sensation up their arms.
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 20:33

thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Like I said.

Quote: "Cause: Fever and chills during transfusion are thought to be caused by recipient antibodies reacting with white cell antigens or white cell fragments in the blood product or due to cytokines which accumulate in the blood product during storage. Fever occurs more commonly with platelet transfusion (10-30%) than red cell transfusion (1-2%)."

http://www.rch.org.au/bloodtrans/adverse_effects/Adverse_effects_of_transfusion/

John Swanson


So Hamilton lied. Good to know. Excellent work :cool:


Hamilton versus the entire body of science concerning transfusions. Good argument. Show me where Hamilton talks about passing out and peeing black goo.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 21:15

ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Like I said.

Quote: "Cause: Fever and chills during transfusion are thought to be caused by recipient antibodies reacting with white cell antigens or white cell fragments in the blood product or due to cytokines which accumulate in the blood product during storage. Fever occurs more commonly with platelet transfusion (10-30%) than red cell transfusion (1-2%)."

http://www.rch.org.au/bloodtrans/adverse_effects/Adverse_effects_of_transfusion/

John Swanson


So Hamilton lied. Good to know. Excellent work :cool:


Hamilton versus the entire body of science concerning transfusions. Good argument. Show me where Hamilton talks about passing out and peeing black goo.

John Swanson


2004 Tour for Phonak that's exactly what occurred to Hamilton, as detailed in his book.

Have you read is book, I guess not considering your responses.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

17 Jul 2017 21:17

Have to check the reply on his one again;

He could have swapped wheel with nieve, but chased the first group till he reached kwiato and made him stop. Normal behavior?


But if memory serves me correctly that's what occurred.
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 22:25

thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Like I said.

Quote: "Cause: Fever and chills during transfusion are thought to be caused by recipient antibodies reacting with white cell antigens or white cell fragments in the blood product or due to cytokines which accumulate in the blood product during storage. Fever occurs more commonly with platelet transfusion (10-30%) than red cell transfusion (1-2%)."

http://www.rch.org.au/bloodtrans/adverse_effects/Adverse_effects_of_transfusion/

John Swanson


So Hamilton lied. Good to know. Excellent work :cool:


Hamilton versus the entire body of science concerning transfusions. Good argument. Show me where Hamilton talks about passing out and peeing black goo.

John Swanson


2004 Tour for Phonak that's exactly what occurred to Hamilton, as detailed in his book.

Have you read is book, I guess not considering your responses.


You win. That explains the blankets and arm warmers for three days, which is what happens in the hospital for anyone receiving a transfusion. Poor transfusion patients. Unconsciousness and chills everywhere. Black goo pee.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

17 Jul 2017 23:02

ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Like I said.

Quote: "Cause: Fever and chills during transfusion are thought to be caused by recipient antibodies reacting with white cell antigens or white cell fragments in the blood product or due to cytokines which accumulate in the blood product during storage. Fever occurs more commonly with platelet transfusion (10-30%) than red cell transfusion (1-2%)."

http://www.rch.org.au/bloodtrans/adverse_effects/Adverse_effects_of_transfusion/

John Swanson


So Hamilton lied. Good to know. Excellent work :cool:


Hamilton versus the entire body of science concerning transfusions. Good argument. Show me where Hamilton talks about passing out and peeing black goo.

John Swanson


2004 Tour for Phonak that's exactly what occurred to Hamilton, as detailed in his book.

Have you read is book, I guess not considering your responses.


You win. That explains the blankets and arm warmers for three days, which is what happens in the hospital for anyone receiving a transfusion. Poor transfusion patients. Unconsciousness and chills everywhere. Black goo pee.

John Swanson


I did win because I've read the evidence from Hamilton and also many others like Jaksche.
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Re: Re:

18 Jul 2017 00:19

thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
thehog wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Like I said.

Quote: "Cause: Fever and chills during transfusion are thought to be caused by recipient antibodies reacting with white cell antigens or white cell fragments in the blood product or due to cytokines which accumulate in the blood product during storage. Fever occurs more commonly with platelet transfusion (10-30%) than red cell transfusion (1-2%)."

http://www.rch.org.au/bloodtrans/adverse_effects/Adverse_effects_of_transfusion/

John Swanson


So Hamilton lied. Good to know. Excellent work :cool:


Hamilton versus the entire body of science concerning transfusions. Good argument. Show me where Hamilton talks about passing out and peeing black goo.

John Swanson


2004 Tour for Phonak that's exactly what occurred to Hamilton, as detailed in his book.

Have you read is book, I guess not considering your responses.

The Hamilton symptoms during the 2004 tour are caused by a bad blood bag tough, he's saying so himself in the book. He could not have been mentally sound at the time, he still tried to ride the next day, he should have gone to the hospital instead, he was risking his life there.
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19 Jul 2017 14:50

when Bardet went, Froome couldn't respond until his hands had gone onto the hoods.
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