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Froome Talk Only

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

11 Jul 2018 11:43

LaFlorecita wrote:
samhocking wrote:I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.


So we've a simultaneously got a situation where the slowest rider is marginally lowering the average speed yet the team is not going slower?!

And then the team don't adjust their speed yet are going slower?!

I'd suggest a re-read of what you've written!
simoni
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Re: Re:

11 Jul 2018 11:58

simoni wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
samhocking wrote:I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.


So we've a simultaneously got a situation where the slowest rider is marginally lowering the average speed yet the team is not going slower?!

And then the team don't adjust their speed yet are going slower?!

I'd suggest a re-read of what you've written!


The slowest rider by talent is still doing less watts than the other seven taking less turns and spending less time on the front, thus is not slowing the team down by his exact talent level. Drag coefficient will come into play depending on size of rider and wind direction.

Sam told us there were hundreds of articles on google to support his claim, there are none. With good reason. It’s simple mathematics in how you set up your TTT team and sequence.
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Re: Re:

11 Jul 2018 12:29

thehog wrote:
simoni wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
samhocking wrote:I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.


So we've a simultaneously got a situation where the slowest rider is marginally lowering the average speed yet the team is not going slower?!

And then the team don't adjust their speed yet are going slower?!

I'd suggest a re-read of what you've written!


The slowest rider by talent is still doing less watts than the other seven taking less turns and spending less time on the front, thus is not slowing the team down by his exact talent level. Drag coefficient will come into play depending on size of rider and wind direction.

Sam told us there were hundreds of articles on google to support his claim, there are none. With good reason. It’s simple mathematics in how you set up your TTT team and sequence.


I am not sure if I should intrude on all this wrangling, but La Florecita and you put it somewhat better than Sam. Some of what he says is right too, but possibly an over-simplification. Skilful sheltering of less strong riders can prevent the overall time increasing in direct proportion to their lesser ability. The riders do not ride at the speed the least able can manage. Looking at it the other way, however, it's easier to organise a team if one of them doesn't have to compensate for another and probably with a better outcome. But "anyone that's ridden TTT" will not be in full agreement with Sam.

If not all the riders are required to record the team time (as is the case in the TdF) some of those dropped will have been putting in a higher effort to boost the time for all, but over a shorter distance and should have been riding at a higher speed than they could have maintained for the full distance (but that's obvious as well, of course).

I also ride in competition at amateur level and my disagreement is based only on personal experience.

I like Sam and like many of the point he makes. Some here are unkind to Sam, as some have been in the past to me. I often wish that disagreement could be expressed more kindly.
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Re: Re:

11 Jul 2018 13:00

wrinklyvet wrote:
thehog wrote:
simoni wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:
samhocking wrote:I corrected that Hog to 5th rider, come on. Anyone that's ridden TTT or studied it a little will know what I mean. Team Sky could only ride at the speed their slowest riders. They finished with 5 so at the end they finished at a speed set off the 5th fastest rider, I thought they finished off their 4th fastest rider that's all. By having to keep up (in the wheels more) he is slowing the stronger riders down, therefore the team as a whole is riding at the pace dictated by the next slowest rider.

Anyone can follow in the wheels regardless of the speed. The shorter and lesser turns of the worst rider will only marginally lower the final average speed. So no, the speed is not determined by the slowest rider. This is only true on uphill sections where it is easy to ride someone out of your wheel.
Take a Michelton-Scott team with Chaves. Chaves is only following in the wheels. Yes, that will slow down the team as they have 1 rider less doing turns so more work load on the others so they go slower, but they don't have to adjust their speed so Chaves can follow.


So we've a simultaneously got a situation where the slowest rider is marginally lowering the average speed yet the team is not going slower?!

And then the team don't adjust their speed yet are going slower?!

I'd suggest a re-read of what you've written!


The slowest rider by talent is still doing less watts than the other seven taking less turns and spending less time on the front, thus is not slowing the team down by his exact talent level. Drag coefficient will come into play depending on size of rider and wind direction.

Sam told us there were hundreds of articles on google to support his claim, there are none. With good reason. It’s simple mathematics in how you set up your TTT team and sequence.


I am not sure if I should intrude on all this wrangling, but La Florecita and you put it somewhat better than Sam. Some of what he says is right too, but possibly an over-simplification. Skilful sheltering of less strong riders can prevent the overall time increasing in direct proportion to their lesser ability. The riders do not ride at the speed the least able can manage. Looking at it the other way, however, it's easier to organise a team if one of them doesn't have to compensate for another and probably with a better outcome. But "anyone that's ridden TTT" will not be in full agreement with Sam.

If not all the riders are required to record the team time (as is the case in the TdF) some of those dropped will have been putting in a higher effort to boost the time for all, but over a shorter distance and should have been riding at a higher speed than they could have maintained for the full distance (but that's obvious as well, of course).

I also ride in competition at amateur level and my disagreement is based only on personal experience.

I like Sam and like many of the point he makes. Some here are unkind to Sam, as some have been in the past to me. I often wish that disagreement could be expressed more kindly.


I think its accepted that there's various strategies you could use to get a given 8 riders along a TTT course such that the 4th rider crosses the finish line as quickly as possible. What strategy you use depends on what the strengths of your riders are (e.g. keep all riders together as long as possible, protect a leader who's weak in the TT, sacrifice two or three weaker riders early so they do the first half all out and then drop off etc. etc. the possibilities are endless).

But there seems to be some sort of idea that the deficiencies of the weakest rider can somehow be removed completely.

Two responses to this -

1 - what about the second, third weakest rider, are they irrelevent to your performance too?
2 - would you rather have a weakest rider who's 6 feet tall, weighs 73kg and can sustain 300 watts for an hour or his more talented twin who can sustain 320 watts for an hour?
simoni
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11 Jul 2018 13:18

I read the posts and I didn't gain the impression that anyone was saying or had the idea that "the deficiencies of the weakest rider can somehow be removed completely" - at least in every case. I suspect we should now leave the lads and lasses to get on with a discussion more relevant to the Clinic
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Re: Re:

11 Jul 2018 13:22

TourOfSardinia wrote:
yaco wrote:Have to agree with Brown Bobby. TTT's are about catering to your weakest rider.

What has this got to do with the CLINIC

M O D S ! ! !
BLATANT OBFUSCATION
has been going on in the clinic for the last two days

update: it continues below with (anyone else wanna join the list?)

bobbybrown
Singer01


You are showing blatant bias here.

Why haven't you included:

thehog
La Florecita
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
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11 Jul 2018 14:04

just gave up updating
the discussion isn't so that it keeps you awake

Ps: how did donkey Froome transcend himself and become a GT winner.
Any new explanations guys/gals
Last edited by TourOfSardinia on 11 Jul 2018 14:19, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar TourOfSardinia
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Re:

11 Jul 2018 14:09

TourOfSardinia wrote:just gave up updating
the discussion isn't so that it keeps you awake

Ps: how did donkey Froome transcend himself and become a GT winner.
Any new explanations guys/gals


The talent was always there. Top 100 in the Tour of Poland in the Year of Transformation. Froome just had to lose the fat. :D
User avatar JosephK
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Re:

11 Jul 2018 14:26

TourOfSardinia wrote:just gave up updating
the discussion isn't so that it keeps you awake

Ps: how did donkey Froome transcend himself and become a GT winner.
Any new explanations guys/gals


Nope.

Bilharzia and marginal gains or loads of undetectable drugs.

Take your pick.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
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11 Jul 2018 14:40

Anyone think CF will test positive in this tdf? I wouldn't be surprised myself.
topcat
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Re: Re:

11 Jul 2018 14:42

TourOfSardinia wrote:
yaco wrote:Have to agree with Brown Bobby. TTT's are about catering to your weakest rider.

What has this got to do with the CLINIC

M O D S ! ! !
BLATANT OBFUSCATION
has been going on in the clinic for the last two days

update: it continues below with (anyone else wanna join the list?)

bobbybrown
Singer01


Nope. I didnt say a single word on the debate. I just answered your question 'What has this got to do with the clinic'.

You're welcome ;)
brownbobby
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11 Jul 2018 18:00

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome



In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.


So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!
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Re:

11 Jul 2018 18:13

Benotti69 wrote:WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome



In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.


So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!


"clarifies"????? Are they having a laugh :D

so...it would appear to all come down to the data supplied by Froome over the course of the Vuelta...the inputs of which can only be self-reported
gillan1969
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Re:

11 Jul 2018 18:17

Benotti69 wrote:WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome



In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.


So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!


Why were WADA attempting to intervene?
User avatar thehog
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Re: Re:

11 Jul 2018 18:31

thehog wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome



In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.


So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!


Why were WADA attempting to intervene?


Game of chess, Knight takes Frenchie.......
User avatar Benotti69
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11 Jul 2018 18:36

Who were the WADA people who decided this?
What's their pedigree?
User avatar TourOfSardinia
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Re:

11 Jul 2018 19:25

TourOfSardinia wrote:Who were the WADA people who decided this?
What's their pedigree?


Friends of Brailsford. :D
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Re: Re:

11 Jul 2018 19:49

Benotti69 wrote:
thehog wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome



In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.


So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!


Why were WADA attempting to intervene?


Game of chess, Knight takes Frenchie.......


:lol: oh I lold hard at that one.
User avatar MartinGT
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11 Jul 2018 20:07

Why some people post in the clinic and not in the road forum?
Especially some that defend Sky or Froome. That is weird.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

11 Jul 2018 20:07

WADA looks worse every time they release a statement on the Froome AAF case.
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