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Froome Talk Only

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11 Nov 2018 11:39

Excluding Horner, I think recently 36 is the oldest age for a GT podium finish, 34 at the Tour
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11 Nov 2018 14:00

A quick hunt for those older than 33 on GC podiums in the last 30 years:

Chris Horner, 2013 Vuelta a España (41 years 327 days)
Lance Armstrong, 2009 Tour de France (37 years 311 days)
Jean-Christophe Peraud, 2014 Tour de France (37 years 66 days)
Joaquím Rodríguez, 2015 Vuelta a España (36 years 124 days)
Cadel Evans, 2013 Giro d'Italia (36 years 101 days)
Alejandro Valverde, 2016 Giro d'Italia (36 years 34 days)
Tony Rominger, 1996 Vuelta a España (35 years 186 days)
Alejandro Valverde, 2015 Tour de France (35 years 92 days)
Marzio Bruseghin, 2008 Giro d'Italia (34 years 351 days)
Ezequiel Mosquera, 2010 Vuelta a España (34 years 304 days)
Levi Leipheimer, 2008 Vuelta a España (34 years 302 days)
Gilberto Simoni, 2006 Giro d'Italia (34 years 276 days)
Cadel Evans, 2011 Tour de France (34 years 160 days)
Alejandro Valverde, 2014 Vuelta a España (34 years 142 days)
Joaquím Rodríguez, 2013 Tour de France (34 years 70 days)
Tony Rominger, 1995 Giro d'Italia (34 years 69 days)
Carlos Sastre, 2009 Giro d'Italia (34 years 39 days)
Pedro Delgado, 1994 Vuelta a España (34 years 30 days)
Marino Lejarreta, 1991 Vuelta a España (34 years 5 days)
Serhiy Honchar, 2004 Giro d'Italia (33 years 331 days)
Eddy Mazzoleni, 2007 Giro d'Italia (33 years 309 days)
Lance Armstrong, 2005 Tour de France (33 years 309 days)
[i]Levi Leipheimer, 2007 Tour de France (33 years 278 days)[i]
Gilberto Simoni, 2005 Giro d'Italia (33 years 277 days)
Piotrs Ugrumovs, 1994 Tour de France (33 years 184 days)
Carlos Sastre, 2008 Vuelta a España (33 years 152 days)
Alejandro Valverde, 2013 Vuelta a España (33 years 143 days)
Joaquím Rodríguez, 2012 Vuelta a España (33 years 120 days)
Carlos Sastre, 2008 Tour de France (33 years 96 days)
Chris Froome, 2018 Tour de France (33 years 70 days)
Tony Rominger, 1994 Vuelta a España (33 years 49 days)
Joaquím Rodríguez, 2012 Giro d'Italia (33 years 15 days)
Chris Froome, 2018 Giro d'Italia (33 years 7 days)
Aleksandr Vinokourov, 2006 Vuelta a España (33 years 1 day)

Winners are bolded. Results stricken are italicized, though Mosquera's has been reinstated.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

11 Nov 2018 15:04

I don't quite get the comparison between Froome and Evans at all-nor the relevance of folks like papi Horner, Vino, Sastre, etc, winning a GT after 34 y.o. because they were not (((multiple))) Tour winners, nor they did have the "super Team" with all ((marginal gains)) to "enhance" their careers as Froome does.

the only rider that Froome's performance was close or -the least- near to challenge, just retired last year & he was not "winning GTs" in such absurd way like Chris did in Il Giro....

IMO Froome will likely win 2 more Tours "the least", barring an accident/injury or a positive.....
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Re: Froome Talk Only

11 Nov 2018 15:13

hfer07 wrote:I don't quite get the comparison between Froome and Evans at all-nor the relevance of folks like papi Horner, Vino, Sastre, etc, winning a GT after 34 y.o. because they were not (((multiple))) Tour winners, nor they did have the "super Team" with all ((marginal gains)) to "enhance" their careers as Froome does.

the only rider that Froome's performance was close or -the least- near to challenge, just retired last year & he was not "winning GTs" in such absurd way like Chris did in Il Giro....

IMO Froome will likely win 2 more Tours "the least", barring an accident/injury or a positive.....

This. Comparisons with Evans, Horner or whoever else are misguided. They were nowhere near the level that Froome is. We haven't seen a rider as dominant as Froome since Armstrong - both on an individual level and by virtue of having such a powerful team.

And Armstrong retired at 33-34 in a position where he probably could have continued riding and winning for the next 3 or 4 years if he had wanted to and had the motivation. He still wasn't too far from winning on his comeback after a four year break.
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11 Nov 2018 15:30

I think actually guys like Evans and Sastre are relevant, because they were, as Froome is, GT specialists who performed at a very consistent level for a number of years before tailing off after 34. No, their best might not have been as good as Froome's best, but the consistency they showed (and in Evans' case, the relative late blooming - who knows what he might have achieved had he been racing with his post-Mendrisio mindset from 2006 onward). Purito and Valverde are harder to say are relevant, but they account for a lot of those older rider podiums - Purito didn't get much freedom to lead until he was already 30 and Valverde missed two years of career in the middle of it. Horner is an outlier, we all know that, but there is something to be said for the fact that even somebody who really, really should be relevant in the discussion of Froome, Tony Rominger - a massive late bloomer (later age-wise than Froome) who came to the sport late, became a top contender even later, and won four GTs in the era of Indurain, only managed two podiums at an age older than Froome's current age. People like Simoni might be relevant - targeting the Giro in the era of the biggest contenders being all-about-the-Tour and the strength of Saeco's red terror means his Giro performances could be more relevant, the issue being that Froome may reach a stage where he isn't able to contest the win at the Tour anymore but can at the Vuelta because, as we all know, Froome performs at his best when it's very hot, he loves the Vuelta, and its mid-length but very steep climbs suit his yo-yoing style on bad days, and he can put people to the sword on his good days, and of course while it has redressed the balance massively from its days in April, the field will always be stronger at the Tour because it's the sole focus of every rider on the startline, plenty at the Vuelta will either focus on the Worlds, use the Worlds as an 'out' if they don't have the form, or you'll see teams send a secondary leader if their bonanza leader does the Tour and calls an end to their season.

Armstrong wasn't too far from winning on his comeback, but only because the parcours was designed with his comeback in mind. Yes, he was good enough to remain in contention anyway, but let's not pretend that he didn't get put comfortably out of the reckoning in the only proper mountain stage of the race. While it obviously wasn't his primary target of the season, a more realistic assessment of Armstrong's comeback level was that year's Giro. He had two shows of strength in comeback 2.0 - one in the Giro and one in the Tour, when he rode across to attacking GC men with pace and ferocity. In the Giro, he got across to the group with Sastre, di Luca, Menchov and somebody else - possibly Garzelli? - but the second he arrived, Sastre attacked again and dropped Lance like a stone (possibly retribution for the disrespect Lance showed him in basically saying, almost in these words, that he was coming back because if a guy like Sastre can win the Tour and Vande Velde can come 4th, it's easy). In the Tour, he was dropped by Contador and the Schlecks in the lead group on the Petit Saint-Bernard, and he stomped on the pedals and rode impressively across to them. Then there was an immediate ceasefire, about 40 people ended up in the group and they all waited for Dave freaking Zabriskie to lead them down the descent into Bourg Saint-Maurice.
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11 Nov 2018 15:37

I think the main difference is that Froome's form could begin to tail off, but he could still win the biggest races. Evans and Sastre need to be at their aboslute peak to win a GT. Froome, as he showed at the Giro, can phone it in for half the race and still come away with the overall win and victories in the two biggest stages. He can drop a level and still beat the likes of Dumoulin and Quintana - especially with having such a strong team. I think perhaps the Tour even more than the Vuelta, because it's so much easier to control. The biggest threat there I guess is that he would get deposed from within his own team by Thomas or maybe Bernal.
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11 Nov 2018 17:16

Obviously it depends on the rider how noticeable the drop off is when a rider starts to decline. That start is usually somewhere in their mid 30's usually around 33 to 35. I also think that is why many riders retire around that age. It's not as big of an issue for the domestiques or the classics specialists, while it's most noticeable for the GT specialists. We've already seen that he's not as dominant as he was previously. He can definitely race for another 5 years, however the question is at what level.
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Re:

11 Nov 2018 18:33

Koronin wrote:Obviously it depends on the rider how noticeable the drop off is when a rider starts to decline. That start is usually somewhere in their mid 30's usually around 33 to 35. I also think that is why many riders retire around that age. It's not as big of an issue for the domestiques or the classics specialists, while it's most noticeable for the GT specialists. We've already seen that he's not as dominant as he was previously. He can definitely race for another 5 years, however the question is at what level.

Have we? He's won a GT double last season and made the best attempt at Giro-Tour for 20 years this season. In the last year he's been the fastest on the hardest climbs in cycling: Zoncolan, Finestre and Angliru amongst others.

I think he's at his peak right now. Finestre ride was every bit as spectacular as Ventoux or the 2015 tour, but now instead of then fading in the third week like he used to, he's getting stronger and staying strong into the following GT.

Not sure there is any sign yet that Froome is at the start of a downward curve. The only big issue I see for him is if Sky decide he carries too much clinic baggage to be their number one and lead them in the Tour, whereas Thomas is seen as much cleaner and more popular.
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Re: Re:

11 Nov 2018 19:15

DFA123 wrote:
Koronin wrote:Obviously it depends on the rider how noticeable the drop off is when a rider starts to decline. That start is usually somewhere in their mid 30's usually around 33 to 35. I also think that is why many riders retire around that age. It's not as big of an issue for the domestiques or the classics specialists, while it's most noticeable for the GT specialists. We've already seen that he's not as dominant as he was previously. He can definitely race for another 5 years, however the question is at what level.

Have we? He's won a GT double last season and made the best attempt at Giro-Tour for 20 years this season. In the last year he's been the fastest on the hardest climbs in cycling: Zoncolan, Finestre and Angliru amongst others.

I think he's at his peak right now. Finestre ride was every bit as spectacular as Ventoux or the 2015 tour, but now instead of then fading in the third week like he used to, he's getting stronger and staying strong into the following GT.

Not sure there is any sign yet that Froome is at the start of a downward curve. The only big issue I see for him is if Sky decide he carries too much clinic baggage to be their number one and lead them in the Tour, whereas Thomas is seen as much cleaner and more popular.



He hasn't been as dominate in a GT since 2015. Also if not for Contador's trap stage he'd have won the Tour/Vuelta double in 2016. He was more dominate in that year than he was in 2017 when he actually got the double.
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Re: Froome Talk Only

11 Nov 2018 23:12

hfer07 wrote:I don't quite get the comparison between Froome and Evans at all-nor the relevance of folks like papi Horner, Vino, Sastre, etc, winning a GT after 34 y.o. because they were not (((multiple))) Tour winners, nor they did have the "super Team" with all ((marginal gains)) to "enhance" their careers as Froome does.


Comparing Froome to multiple Tour winners just makes my point even more emphatically. Froome has won three Tours past the age of 30. In that same 95 year period, Indurain is the only other multiple Tour winner who did it even twice. Not counting LA.

Riders win multiple Tours by starting young, and entering the event every year. Eventually, that takes its toll and they burn out. Granted, Froome started relatively late (same to some extent with LA, given that he was out with cancer for a while), which may explain why he's lasted as long as he has.

LA was almost 34 when he retired the first time, and I'll grant you that he probably could have won the Tour the following year, and possibly in 2007. By 2008, I think Contador would have beaten him, had they both been able to ride the Tour. But there were other relevant factors. If Ullrich and Basso, both younger riders, hadn't had their careers derailed in 2006, they might have surpassed LA by 2007.

samhocking wrote:Is the dropoff that sudden at 34? Froome at 33 just had the best last 12 months of GT performances so far in his entire career didn't he? Evans at 33 hadn't, so no comparison.


Best results is not necessarily the same as best performance. Results depend on performance, obviously, but also other factors that change from year to year, like competition, parcours, crashes, etc.

He will begin to fade, but there should be time for 1 or 2 more Tour De France podiums I would think.


I don't disagree with that. But competing for the podium in the next year or two is not destroying Bernal's potential, which is what I was responding to.
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12 Nov 2018 18:50

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Re: Froome Talk Only

07 Dec 2018 12:50

a bug on Strava, showing power and heart rate. Froome has always very low heart rate

https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1071011319221022722
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Re: Froome Talk Only

07 Dec 2018 15:49

pastronef wrote:a bug on Strava, showing power and heart rate. Froome has always very low heart rate

https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1071011319221022722

removed?
Shut up, Jens!
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Re: Froome Talk Only

07 Dec 2018 18:32

glassmoon wrote:
pastronef wrote:a bug on Strava, showing power and heart rate. Froome has always very low heart rate

https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1071011319221022722

removed?


yes, Laflammerouge removed it because he could have problems with privacy rules. it dod show Froome´s training on Zoncolan and another day on Madone, Braus and other riviera climbs. heart rate didnt go above 160
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Re: Froome Talk Only

07 Dec 2018 20:12

pastronef wrote:
glassmoon wrote:
pastronef wrote:a bug on Strava, showing power and heart rate. Froome has always very low heart rate

https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1071011319221022722

removed?


yes, Laflammerouge removed it because he could have problems with privacy rules. it dod show Froome´s training on Zoncolan and another day on Madone, Braus and other riviera climbs. heart rate didnt go above 160

f*ck your privacy...we want all the goodies!!! we have agendas to keep up
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