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The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

30 Jul 2017 10:53

I don't buy the Djokovic silent ban either. He's been crap for the last 12 months, and an elbow injury is pretty consistent with how his game has developed over the last year

When would the positive for a silent ban have gotten out? half a year after he destroyed everything and started playing ****?
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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Re:

30 Jul 2017 10:59

Red Rick wrote:Don't really know about Bartoli, she certainly could've used some more peds to slim down, her movement was atrocious. There's also reason to think that she was mentally super fragile, as she clearly got an eating disorder after retiring

Wimbledon 2013 was seen as Bartoli getting back to her old form after she'd ditched her father and was now being trained by Amelie Mauresmo.
Mauresmo seems to have been suspicious, even in the eyes of the ITF.
According to the document, only one player, Amelie Mauresmo, was retested within days of a missed test.
http://www.tennisnow.com/News/Featured-News/Q-A-with-Richard-Ings.aspx
fwiw of course.
sniper
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Re:

30 Jul 2017 11:56

Red Rick wrote:I don't buy the Djokovic silent ban either. He's been crap for the last 12 months, and an elbow injury is pretty consistent with how his game has developed over the last year

When would the positive for a silent ban have gotten out? half a year after he destroyed everything and started playing ****?
I don't think Djoker has a silent ban either.

To your latter point: in my view the whole concept of silent bans doesn't make sense.
They raise more questions than answers.
If they want to hide doping, why even bother with the silent bans, why not just shove the positives under the carpet altogether.

Yet we know they're happening.

Maybe betting/matchfixing is playing in the background. Bribes.
Rest assured, we don't know even a fraction of what's going on behind the scenes.
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30 Jul 2017 12:16

i think betting scandals are mostly a future and challenger and doubles and mixed doubles thing

higher up i wouldn"t know though i can only guess

the tennis world is riding federer harder than the cycling world did armstrong on his heights

tennis is in a terrible spot right now with the big four and nadal and especially federer getting wayyyy too hyped so all of the sports publicity stands and falls with those guys

i hope federer doesn"t retire before he"s getting beaten up in the slams by the thiems and kyrgioses of this world

i don"t think there"s a worse thing for the sport than fed winning three slams right now another two next year and then retiring as world number one
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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Re: Re:

30 Jul 2017 14:31

sniper wrote:
poupou wrote:Did she heat the ball harder than before? Did she ran faster and/or longer than previous tournament? I didn't have seen that.
She was probably as juiced as normal.

Yes she was better than usual. Read the reports.
Maybe she went gluten free, different shoes, or something.

Regardless. Even if she had lost in the first round, it doesn't change the fact that her retirement came as a huge surprise and raised eyebrows. Not just mine.
So to repeat: I don't know if it was a silent ban, but there is enough reason to suspect one.
Not my fault. ITFs fault.

To retire after a such win is not a surprise.
As far we can see, doping is common in tennis. I do'nt think she was more doped than ever. AICAR would have helped her to be lighter, so much faster.
She won Wimbledon whithout having to play a top 10 player, that is more likely the first reason of her success.
A silent ban woks only on player who want to continue to play. Bartoli could have come back. What would have say ITF? We had hidden a doping offence? Blackmailing works only ITF has less to lose than players.
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30 Jul 2017 18:53

Tennis is really getting serious about doping! :razz:

The IFT just endorsed a ban placed by the French NADO on "titan of the game" Alexandre Nicolau ...... Alexandre (age 34) played one match on the pro tour back in 2010, where he lost in straight sets in the qualifying round of a futures event. He has no ATP ranking. He was served a one year ban after testing positive for the mother of all PEDs..... cannabis.....


You can read the press release (I'm not kidding, they thought this was worth a press release) here:
http://www.itftennis.com/news/266038.aspx
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Re:

30 Jul 2017 19:09

arcus wrote:Tennis is really getting serious about doping! :razz:

The IFT just endorsed a ban placed by the French NADO on "titan of the game" Alexandre Nicolau ...... Alexandre (age 34) played one match on the pro tour back in 2010, where he lost in straight sets in the qualifying round of a futures event. He has no ATP ranking. He was served a one year ban after testing positive for the mother of all PEDs..... cannabis.....


You can read the press release (I'm not kidding, they thought this was worth a press release) here:
http://www.itftennis.com/news/266038.aspx

I'm trying to remember if there's a cut off for the draw size of futures quali's or if that could've been me too.
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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Re: Re:

30 Jul 2017 19:48

poupou wrote:...
To retire after a such win is not a surprise.
As far we can see, doping is common in tennis. I do'nt think she was more doped than ever. AICAR would have helped her to be lighter, so much faster.
She won Wimbledon whithout having to play a top 10 player, that is more likely the first reason of her success.

To be honest, I don't care too much *how* she won wimbledon.
Fact is she won it.
It's her subsequent retirement that is of interest here. That's what raised the eyebrows.
Imagine the start money she could've cashed if she'd just played on for another few months.

A silent ban woks only on player who want to continue to play.
why? We have no idea what she may have been caught for, or how long the hypothetical ban would have been. Maybe it wasn't her first positive. Maybe they asked her to quit.

Bartoli could have come back. What would have say ITF? We had hidden a doping offence? Blackmailing works only ITF has less to lose than players.
I'm not quite following this.
But I think we're largely on the same page: I agree a silent ban raises a lot of questions.
However, the nature of her retirement was such that it warrants an extraordinary explanation.
We know silent bans have been happening, ITF have admitted it themselves.
Bartoli 2013 for me is a prime candidate.
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Re: Re:

30 Jul 2017 21:01

Red Rick wrote:
arcus wrote:Tennis is really getting serious about doping! :razz:

The IFT just endorsed a ban placed by the French NADO on "titan of the game" Alexandre Nicolau ...... Alexandre (age 34) played one match on the pro tour back in 2010, where he lost in straight sets in the qualifying round of a futures event. He has no ATP ranking. He was served a one year ban after testing positive for the mother of all PEDs..... cannabis.....


You can read the press release (I'm not kidding, they thought this was worth a press release) here:
http://www.itftennis.com/news/266038.aspx

I'm trying to remember if there's a cut off for the draw size of futures quali's or if that could've been me too.


How was he even tested? Did he enter another futures event stoned?

Regardless, what an utter waste of time and money to make this an ADRV, when the big fish are probably drowning in undetectable PEDs..
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06 Aug 2017 16:25

sniper
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Re:

06 Aug 2017 16:30


No doubt that Tennis will do everything they can to avoid bringing their dirty laundry public, which should be infuriating for any clean tennis players that have been beaten by rumored dopers.
Darryl Webster wrote:
"Nothing seems to blind peeps as much as patriotism does it!"
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Re: Re:

06 Aug 2017 17:11

Irondan wrote:

No doubt that Tennis will do everything they can to avoid bringing their dirty laundry public, which should be infuriating for any clean tennis players that have been beaten by rumored dopers.

I doubt it. Everyone is wayy too much in awe of the most obvious doper of the season
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
-Kwibus, one of the great philosophers of the 21st century
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06 Aug 2017 18:09

Fwiw, I did find it a bit suspicious when he said "I'm taking the rest of 2017 off". He could just recover from the injury and see how long it takes.
At the same time there were rumours about him having marital problems too. So it all remains guess work.
Certainly everything's possible with ITF.
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06 Aug 2017 18:12

The problem with the concept of a silent ban is that it would require WADA complicity. WADA know when athletes have an AAF (albeit anonymously when the sample is first analyzed), and have powers of oversight in relation to how that AAF is handled by the sports regulatory body.
If Djokovic had a positive test, and the ITF wanted to bury it, they would have to provide WADA with a convincing explanation for the positive.
arcus
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Re:

06 Aug 2017 18:25

arcus wrote:The problem with the concept of a silent ban is that it would require WADA complicity. WADA know when athletes have an AAF (albeit anonymously when the sample is first analyzed), and have powers of oversight in relation to how that AAF is handled by the sports regulatory body.
If Djokovic had a positive test, and the ITF wanted to bury it, they would have to provide WADA with a convincing explanation for the positive.

ITF themselves have admitted silent bans are a real thing. So it may be problem, but apparently a solvable one.
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06 Aug 2017 18:33

sniper
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Re: Re:

06 Aug 2017 20:17

sniper wrote:
arcus wrote:The problem with the concept of a silent ban is that it would require WADA complicity. WADA know when athletes have an AAF (albeit anonymously when the sample is first analyzed), and have powers of oversight in relation to how that AAF is handled by the sports regulatory body.
If Djokovic had a positive test, and the ITF wanted to bury it, they would have to provide WADA with a convincing explanation for the positive.

ITF themselves have admitted silent bans are a real thing. So it may be problem, but apparently a solvable one.


The ITF don't announce AAFs and provisional suspensions in advance of a tribunal confirming that an athlete was guilty of an ADRV. This is actually C/W the WADA code. The justification is that an athlete shouldn't be convicted in public before they have a chance to defend themselves if (very big if, I understand), they can prove their innocence.

That is not the same as what tennis fans think of as a "silent ban" where an athlete is hypothetically found guilty of a doping violation, sanctioned for a period of time (generally less than WADA code would have stipulated), but allowed to serve their sentence in secrecy. This (the later) could require WADA complicity, which I think/hope makes it less likely.
arcus
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Re:

06 Aug 2017 20:22

arcus wrote:The problem with the concept of a silent ban is that it would require WADA complicity.

A player doesn't have to positive test to be able to conclude that in all probability he or she had been doping. Consider the ITF approach to Del Moral. He'd been working at the TenisVal academy for fifteen years. Players had spoken of his brilliance, including a world No 1, Dinara Safina, who publicly marvelled at the way Del Moral had assisted her 'recovery' issues with his potions. Plenty of circumstantial evidence existed to point the finger at active players, including those at the top of the rankings, Ferrer and Errani, when it became apparent Del Moral was a major trafficker and doping enabler. The question arises as to why these players weren't trapped as happened with Odesnik whom they wanted off the circuit altogether. The ITF must have been in the know about Del Moral before the news broke through its anti-doping working relationships and intelligence networks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/drugsinsport/9878698/International-Tennis-Federation-to-increase-testing-on-players-linked-to-Dr-Luis-Garcia-del-Moral.html

How could the ITF had satisfied itself that no players had been blood doping? In my view, Errani and Ferrer were basically protected by the authorities and warned off. This indicates that the ITF deals with dopers in other ways than the standard WADA route of simply getting them to serve bans that are known about and publicised. Ferrer claimed to the ITF he'd never met Del Moral. I believe this is untrue as I saw a publicity photo of his training team at the academy at the time he joined TenisVal and Del Moral was named as one of those in the group photo. The ITF must have known he was associating with Del Moral. Interestingly, that photo is no longer knocking around on the internet.
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07 Aug 2017 09:12

Gaspar Ribeiro Lança‏ @gasparlanca 59m59 minutes ago
More
According to newspaper Corriere Della Sera, Sara Errani tested positive for anstrozole, banned substance used to fight breast cancer.
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