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Hein Verbruggen

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14 Jun 2017 13:19

Let the tongues now wag
User avatar TourOfSardinia
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14 Jun 2017 13:41

1) When all is said and done, history will be a kinder judge to Hein Verbruggen than we have been. They will see the positive changes he made to the sport and view the doping in a wider context.

2) History is not always correct, as anyone who looks at cycling's error-riddled history will tell you.

3) <Edited by mods>
Last edited by Irondan on 14 Jun 2017 14:25, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Poor taste
User avatar fmk_RoI
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14 Jun 2017 15:58

RIP
I noticed there was no option to comment on the article that mentioned his passing.
Hmmmm wonder why.
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14 Jun 2017 19:46

viewtopic.php?p=1194861#p1194861

Oh please, that post was never deleted before. I guess the whole thread will be deleted, just to cover the tracks...
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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14 Jun 2017 21:29

"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
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14 Jun 2017 21:43

Requiem, Hein Verbruggen.

As it is customary (and salutary) to attempt commendation at this time, I'll add that here's something principled to approaching life like he did, steadfast and unrepentant to the end. That conviction assisted in setting some of the pillars upon which cycling has found some measure of continued growth and success.
"Christmas is tomorrow... Let's get in the break." - Matt Hayman, 4/9/16
"What a strange illusion it is to suppose that beauty is goodness." - Tolstoy
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Re:

15 Jun 2017 17:10

TourOfSardinia wrote:Let the tongues now wag


This. Now without fear of reprisal, maybe we can find out where the bodies are buried. No pun intended obviously.
The poster formerly known as yespatterns.
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Re:

19 Jun 2017 02:02

[quote="fmk_RoI"]1) When all is said and done, history will be a kinder judge to Hein Verbruggen than we have been./quote]

By kinder, you mean a clear documentation of his long history of corruption?
viewtopic.php?t=21431

http://www.velonews.com/2013/01/analysis/hoberman-qa-outlining-corruption-doping-collusion-at-the-ioc-uci_270482

How about his efforts to bury the Armstrong controversy?
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13835/McQuaid-asks-IOC-members-to-request-WADA-eases-off-on-UCI.aspx

$100,000 bribe to bury Armstrong's positive? (Taking a page out of Diack's playbook.)

Keirin bribe? Millions!!!

Require France suspend anti-doping laws as a prerequisite for an IOC bid? http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/football/actualites/buffet-a-subi-des-pressions-623251

A good guy?
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19 Jun 2017 07:28

always take the $.....................doping?...what doping...always take the £

Mark L
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Re:

19 Jun 2017 10:54

ebandit wrote:always take the $.....................doping?...what doping...always take the £

Mark L


QFT
glassmoon
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Re: Re:

19 Jun 2017 14:35

DirtyWorks wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:1) When all is said and done, history will be a kinder judge to Hein Verbruggen than we have been./quote]

By kinder, you mean a clear documentation of his long history of corruption?
viewtopic.php?t=21431

http://www.velonews.com/2013/01/analysis/hoberman-qa-outlining-corruption-doping-collusion-at-the-ioc-uci_270482

How about his efforts to bury the Armstrong controversy?
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13835/McQuaid-asks-IOC-members-to-request-WADA-eases-off-on-UCI.aspx

$100,000 bribe to bury Armstrong's positive? (Taking a page out of Diack's playbook.)

Keirin bribe? Millions!!!

Require France suspend anti-doping laws as a prerequisite for an IOC bid? http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/football/actualites/buffet-a-subi-des-pressions-623251

A good guy?
If you're not going to read what I wrote and if you're going to go around trying to suggest I said things I did not then please, don't waste my time with such tiresome nonsense. TIA.
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Re: Re:

19 Jun 2017 15:15

fmk_RoI wrote:
DirtyWorks wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:1) When all is said and done, history will be a kinder judge to Hein Verbruggen than we have been./quote]

By kinder, you mean a clear documentation of his long history of corruption?
viewtopic.php?t=21431

http://www.velonews.com/2013/01/analysis/hoberman-qa-outlining-corruption-doping-collusion-at-the-ioc-uci_270482

How about his efforts to bury the Armstrong controversy?
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13835/McQuaid-asks-IOC-members-to-request-WADA-eases-off-on-UCI.aspx

$100,000 bribe to bury Armstrong's positive? (Taking a page out of Diack's playbook.)

Keirin bribe? Millions!!!

Require France suspend anti-doping laws as a prerequisite for an IOC bid? http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/football/actualites/buffet-a-subi-des-pressions-623251

A good guy?
If you're not going to read what I wrote and if you're going to go around trying to suggest I said things I did not then please, don't waste my time with such tiresome nonsense. TIA.


Your points of view are nearly identical. You both see the cycling cesspool for what it is, nevertheless you both love the cycling cesspool. The only difference is that one of you expresses a high moral outrage and the other expresses a cynical acceptance.

Enjoy the filthy circus! I'm gonna go haul my fully loaded bike up a few hills today!
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Re: Re:

22 Jun 2017 03:42

MarkvW wrote:Your points of view are nearly identical. You both see the cycling cesspool for what it is, nevertheless you both love the cycling cesspool. The only difference is that one of you expresses a high moral outrage and the other expresses a cynical acceptance.

Enjoy the filthy circus! I'm gonna go haul my fully loaded bike up a few hills today!


I didn't read it like that. I stand corrected.

I would classify my interest as more of a morbid fascination. I'm so boring I can't imagine some of the innovative ways these IOC officials collect bribes. As such reading about them is kind of interesting.
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15 Jan 2018 17:37

Fancy bears have leaked Hein's letter to Thomas Bach President of the IOC - 13th Oct 2016.
https://twitter.com/FancyBears/status/952853498512662529

Hein came out with this one
"......The CIRC had to conclude that there was no corruption, no complicity with doping, no tolerance of riders known to be doping. ......

So what happened to the cheque for $100,000 from Lance to the UCI ?

So Hein what were you doing here ?
https://www.vn.nl/hein-verbruggen-uci-for-years-cycling-federation-warned-armstrong-and-other-riders-with-suspect-values/


When the 1999 samples were retested and in 2002 the UCI were informed that the factual evidence was that Lance and the virtually the whole peloton doped, what did Hein think was going on at the time ? Lance, Tyler, Eki, Vino and the rest had given up doping ?

Here is a great picture. Hein is in "full-metal-jacket" mode showing no tolerance of riders he knowns to be doping.
Image

The even more astonishing thing is Cookson gave Hein money after CIRC appeared, settling Hein's claim for defamation.

If you wrote it as a script for a film it would not get traction !
Last edited by Freddythefrog on 15 Jan 2018 18:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

15 Jan 2018 18:06

Freddythefrog wrote:When the 1999 samples were retested and in 2002 the UCI were informed that the factual evidence was that Lance and the virtually the whole peloton doped, what did Hein think was going on at the time ? Lance, Tyler, Eki, Vino and the rest had given up doping ?

Even when the policy of specifically warning riders who were predicted to have future issues with their blood data (high Hct/OFFs-score) is ethically questionable, I've never quite figured out why the UCI is always singled out as the only organisation that didn't chase the ones who were "known" to have blood doped.

There is almost equally good case against the International Ski Federation (FIS), the organisation that didn't chase the individual cross-country skiers from the data collected from almost every major competition from the mid-1990s until early 2000s which showed highly suspicious fluctuations in Hb levels and high individual values.
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15 Jan 2018 21:17

I don't recall anyone ever saying that. The IAAF's issues are well known, for example. Very few people outside the Nordic countries are even aware of the existence of cross-country skiing on a day-to-day basis and most people in the world never have the opportunity to do it recreationally the way everyone has had a bike at some stage.

Cycling had the combination of being reasonably well-known globally (although a minority sport in most of the world) AND having several doping scandals essentially by chance from police involvement AND the fact that the fittest riders have a vast advantage (including the ignorance of non-fans of the importance of tactics) AND the intrigue factor of essentially a shadow constructors' championships - a race within a race AND a narrative arc of its biggest star being a kind of saint bigger than the sport who went to the brink of death and came back to perform miracles but then was undone by his own nature like the lead in a Greek tragedy. It's a hell of a story.
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Re:

16 Jan 2018 05:56

My main criticism was that there was very little legal precedent to go after these "known" dopers with the legal framework of the pre-ABP world even when Lon Schattenberg, Mario Zorzoli, Martial Saugy and the others were close to 100 % certain that some of them doped. For instance, I recall seeing a 2006 paper where a group of blood doping researchers discussed the efficacy of the anti-doping policy and showed the data of one XC-skier where both his reticulocytes and hemoglobin fluctuated enormously between IN and OFF-seasons, but still there had to be an adverse analytical finding in order to sanction him (DYNEPO in this case).

This same principle held true in every sport, and (IIRC) both IAAF and Hein Verbruggen have pointed out that many of the people (Ashenden, Parisotto) complaining that the organizations didn't give sanctions fifteen years ago based on blood fluctuations alone approved the principle that simply "knowing" wasn't enough.
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Re: Re:

26 Jan 2018 03:14

Aragon wrote:My main criticism was that there was very little legal precedent


An important reminder that sports sanctions are non-judicial. There's no legal anything beyond the sports federations own rules and their total authority over sanctioning.

The lawyers on CAS panels work for the sports federations when they aren't on CAS panels, or on the other side of the table.

You should just give up now, or go read WADA's standards.
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Re: Re:

26 Jan 2018 07:59

Maybe that was a bad choice of words, I'll grant you that.

If you read the academic literature on the subject, the term "precedent" is commonly used in the literature about how the anti-doping system works. Even if there there exists no binding one, it is always emphasized that CAS panels should take into the consideration the earlier decisions, for instance, in relation to non-analytical evidence, according to one paper, it was only in 2005 when "USADA set the precedent for this type of conviction in 2005 when it found that Tim Montgomery used steroids without a positive test".

No other sport stepped forward and punished the known blood dopers even when they had the material right in front of them, neither did the cycling world. That is when every sport interested in monitoring blood values knew with almost 100 % certainty who were blood doping.
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