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Hein Verbruggen

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22 Nov 2013 11:19

JMBeaushrimp wrote:I give JV a hard time, but p*ssing Heiny off gains him half a point...


yet, if you re-read that OP by JV on Hein and Pat the other day (the one where he posted that voicemail), you'll see that JV never seems to have had any dispute with Hein over antidoping. Only business dispute.
That's odd if JV has dedicated his life to antidoping.
It looks as if JV has never raised any sort of antidoping flags within the UCI during Pat's presidency. Only towards the very end, when Pat's ship was already firmly sinking after the Lance fall out, has JV come out and raise his voice. a bit late imo. Especially striking to me, still, is JV's silence during Lance comeback in '09.
sniper
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22 Nov 2013 12:44

sniper wrote:yet, if you re-read that OP by JV on Hein and Pat the other day (the one where he posted that voicemail), you'll see that JV never seems to have had any dispute with Hein over antidoping. Only business dispute.
That's odd if JV has dedicated his life to antidoping.
It looks as if JV has never raised any sort of antidoping flags within the UCI during Pat's presidency. Only towards the very end, when Pat's ship was already firmly sinking after the Lance fall out, has JV come out and raise his voice. a bit late imo. Especially striking to me, still, is JV's silence during Lance comeback in '09.


There's a large distance between running a clean team and being Don Quichotte. JV never claimed to be the messiah who would clean cylcing. He said he would run his team differently.

I respect JV's behavior in this, had he played it differently there wouldn't have been Garmin. I also don't have the opinion that it is JV's responsibility to spill all the dirt he knows just for greater justice. Most did much less than JV in the whole road to exposure.

I'm sure many of you diagree with me on this ;)
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

"It is better to risk saving a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one."
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22 Nov 2013 13:06

sniper wrote:yet, if you re-read that OP by JV on Hein and Pat the other day (the one where he posted that voicemail), you'll see that JV never seems to have had any dispute with Hein over antidoping. Only business dispute.


No doubt people are going to misinterpret this as another irrational, anti-JV rant, but meh.

What I want to know is: what exactly is the "business" or the "we" that existed between Hein and JV, that (is now or is going) to be over because JV is boycotting the Tour of China?

Hein at that time was honorary president, and clearly a wheeler and dealer, seeing as he was setting the Tour up in the first place. He owns or is owner of a media company (?) from memory. But he had no official capacity with the UCI (as documented on the UCI website).

So what is it he was doing, that JV would need or desire a relationship with Hein.

Hein's a bit of a doosh, but he's not dumb, IMO. If it (the "we" of Hein and Garmin/JV) meant nothing, wtf was he thinking, by threatening JV with its cessation?

How about a bit more transparency?
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User avatar Dear Wiggo
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22 Nov 2013 13:21

Considering all Hein had(s) his grubby finger into I doubt it's impossible for a pro-team not to have some dealings with the cretin.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

"It is better to risk saving a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one."
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22 Nov 2013 13:48

Dear Wiggo wrote:No doubt people are going to misinterpret this as another irrational, anti-JV rant, but meh.

What I want to know is: what exactly is the "business" or the "we" that existed between Hein and JV, that (is now or is going) to be over because JV is boycotting the Tour of China?

Hein at that time was honorary president, and clearly a wheeler and dealer, seeing as he was setting the Tour up in the first place. He owns or is owner of a media company (?) from memory. But he had no official capacity with the UCI (as documented on the UCI website).

So what is it he was doing, that JV would need or desire a relationship with Hein.

Hein's a bit of a doosh, but he's not dumb, IMO. If it (the "we" of Hein and Garmin/JV) meant nothing, wtf was he thinking, by threatening JV with its cessation?

How about a bit more transparency?

legitimate question.
the nature of that voicemail indeed seemed to suggest some preexisting understanding/relationship between jv and hein which had now come under pressure.
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22 Nov 2013 15:49

Dear Wiggo wrote:No doubt people are going to misinterpret this as another irrational, anti-JV rant, but meh.

What I want to know is: what exactly is the "business" or the "we" that existed between Hein and JV, that (is now or is going) to be over because JV is boycotting the Tour of China?

Hein at that time was honorary president, and clearly a wheeler and dealer, seeing as he was setting the Tour up in the first place. He owns or is owner of a media company (?) from memory. But he had no official capacity with the UCI (as documented on the UCI website).

So what is it he was doing, that JV would need or desire a relationship with Hein.

Hein's a bit of a doosh, but he's not dumb, IMO. If it (the "we" of Hein and Garmin/JV) meant nothing, wtf was he thinking, by threatening JV with its cessation?

How about a bit more transparency?


Power lies not in titles, but influence and what you can get done.
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22 Nov 2013 17:18

sniper wrote: UCI abusing their grip on the testing to influence results. Apparently Hein was able to pull that kind of strings, already in the late 80s.


It's not abuse though.

Even after Hein was the last sport federation to agree to the WADA protocols, the standards explicitly state the parties that direct testing include the sports federation itself. Since the UCI puts itself in charge of anti-doping for many events, Hein is free to choose who and what tests to run and then opt to process a positive, or not.

Even if they aren't in charge at an event, Hein can order an OOC test on whomever he likes with any kind of frequency he likes and then specify which tests to run. Again, not an "abuse" per se but more like royalty managing his fiefdom. What a great way to control the outcome of the sporting events!
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22 Nov 2013 17:26

sniper wrote:legitimate question.
the nature of that voicemail indeed seemed to suggest some preexisting understanding/relationship between jv and hein which had now come under pressure.


This is despot politics and JV's just one of the royal court.

An unrelated note, recall that Hein was on the selection committee that eventually chose Beijing for a Summer Games. He'll know people with the power and money and most of all the enthusiasm to buy a slot on the WT calendar. It would be cheap and easy compared to hosting an Olympics games!

This was also the same committee/person that demanded the French/Paris agree, in writing, not to enforce any of their anti-doping law as a part of their bid.
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23 Nov 2013 04:50

Franklin wrote:There's a large distance between running a clean team and being Don Quichotte. JV never claimed to be the messiah who would clean cylcing. He said he would run his team differently.

I respect JV's behavior in this, had he played it differently there wouldn't have been Garmin. I also don't have the opinion that it is JV's responsibility to spill all the dirt he knows just for greater justice. Most did much less than JV in the whole road to exposure.

I'm sure many of you diagree with me on this ;)


It's Don Quixote.

And I agree. Vaughters only commitment was to running a clean team in an environment where doping was still partially and conditionally condoned. Verbruggen had the power to make Vaughters' life miserable. If there be any criticism of Vaughters, it should be for his decision to run a clean team under the sanction of the UCI over becoming another voice in the wilderness raging against doping and omerta.

Sure, if Vaughters chose the latter he would certainly have less trouble attaining the level of purity some of us demand. And he would have been about as effective as Cristophe Bassons and Filippo Simeoni. Given the times and his qualifications, I'd say he made the right choice.
User avatar ustabe
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23 Nov 2013 05:26

ustabe wrote:It's Don Quixote.


French spelling.
proffate
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23 Nov 2013 14:59

proffate wrote:French spelling.


Aha. Thanks for the correction.
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23 Nov 2013 19:28

Even the Pope is getting in on the act:

The Pope told Olympic leaders that looking for profit and victory at all costs risked reducing athletes "to mere trading material".

"Sport is harmony, but if money and success prevail as the aim, this harmony crumbles," Pope Francis said.

Neat Olympics bauble for him ;)
Image
keep taking the holy water!
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23 Nov 2013 19:47

TourOfSardinia wrote:Even the Pope is getting in on the act:

The Pope told Olympic leaders that looking for profit and victory at all costs risked reducing athletes "to mere trading material".

"Sport is harmony, but if money and success prevail as the aim, this harmony crumbles," Pope Francis said.

Neat Olympics bauble for him ;)
Image
keep taking the holy water!


This pic comes to mind....
Image
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23 Nov 2013 19:51

Fausto's Schnauzer wrote:This pic comes to mind....


Pope John Paul II was a big cycling fan.

He blessed Manzano after his revelations. He also met Cipo. Often he'd be watching the Giro but never the Tour.

Image

Spanish rider Jesus Manzano kisses Pope John Paul II's hand during the weekly general audience in St. Peter's square at the Vatican, Wednesday, March 31, 2004. The Spanish rider, who rocked the cycling world with accusations of widespread doping, has signed with an Italian team that has a public anti-doping stance.
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23 Nov 2013 20:25

Is that issue with degaldeano already known? I think from 2001. Vebruggen giving him a pass for cortisone.
or the uci email to all teams i think from 2002 where they explain teams that dynepo cannot yet be detected but offers great performance enhance,ent...
read about it in the sueddeutsche zeitung tpday, article about the growung pressure on verdruggen, including thes stuff that came out yetsterday (stevenhaagen,etc.)
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23 Nov 2013 21:40

sniper wrote:Is that issue with degaldeano already known? I think from 2001. Vebruggen giving him a pass for cortisone.
or the uci email to all teams i think from 2002 where they explain teams that dynepo cannot yet be detected but offers great performance enhance,ent...
read about it in the sueddeutsche zeitung tpday, article about the growung pressure on verdruggen, including thes stuff that came out yetsterday (stevenhaagen,etc.)


Image

The graph below shows the frequency of Google searches for Hein Verbruggen this year.

Two peaks, one in January when Lance went on Oprah and one this month after Lance accused the former UCI chief of ordering a positive test to be covered up.



http://journalvelo.com/opinion/lance-armstrong-still-controlling-the-agenda/
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17 Dec 2013 23:31

Interview with Verbruggen in The Telegraph tomorrow.

Responding at length for the first time to the disgraced former Tour de France champion’s claims last month that a positive test in 1999 was suppressed, Hein Verbruggen, the former head of world cycling:

• Accused Armstrong of making the accusations for financial gain
• Produced documentary evidence aimed at showing there was no positive test
• Said there was no corruption during his reign in charge of the International Cycling Union
• Revealed he had written to the American seeking an apology.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/10524376/Lance-Armstrong-has-an-agenda-made-my-life-a-misery-says-former-UCI-president-Hein-Verbruggen.html
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18 Dec 2013 05:13



Perfect timing. Clearly worried about what coming out in testimony from London :rolleyes:
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18 Dec 2013 06:10

thehog wrote:Perfect timing. Clearly worried about what coming out in testimony from London :rolleyes:


As a long term follower of this whole saga (certainly not as long or as 'inside' as many here), it's really satisfying to see the wolves start turning on each other. Verbruggen's 'Lance is just trying to get money' is the new Lance's 'Floyd and Tyler are just trying to get money', which of course in itself was a theme played on by Floyd and Tyler themselves. Up the chain it goes... I know it was inevitable it would come to this at some point, but just like Lance saying 'yes' in those opening 90 seconds of the Oprah interview, I never really thought I'd be seeing it. It will be interesting to her what comes out of the Brunyeel et al arbitration stuff, and whatever comes out of Qui Tam about Wiesel, reactions to that, etc (of course Wiesel is disconnected enough to cycling that he probably has less incentive to go slinging mud in public than others).
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18 Dec 2013 07:45

Good interview, Verdruggen coming out of it as his usual loony self. They could have asked about his plans to buy the TDF with Lance (vs "never much contact", his "Lance never never never doped" statements and "I can make anyone positive" claim...
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