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Media amnesia and reactions

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19 Aug 2013 19:34

Dr. Maserati wrote:<snipped>

I am not interested in what you think, you said Ashenden "dismissed the bio passport as not working".
I am asking where he said that.


Because I think the holes in the biopassport system are a massively important issue for clean cycling, I'll post a couple articles here.

“The UCI have continued to mislead cycling fans and the public by attempting to pretend that a cut in the number of passport tests at the end of season does not impair the passport programme,” he told VeloNation today. “In fact, that out of season testing is absolutely vital, perhaps the most valuable data of all, because it is during that period that the highly sophisticated dopers are most vulnerable. To cut back testing during that crucial period does, without question, limit the effectiveness of the passport.”
Source

“Cyclists have learned how to mask their blood during the race season. For example, to mask doping they know how to dilute blood levels with saline and stimulate the bone marrow with microdoses of EPO,” he told VeloNation. “However, once the season is over they take blood out to store in readiness for the following year. But there is simply no way to mask that you've withdrawn blood. The blood levels are already abnormally low so dilution makes it worse. The bone marrow is already hyper-activated so EPO would make that worse too.

“Quite simply, it is the one time of the year where we know what riders are doing, we know the blood signature to look for, and we know they cannot hide that signature. So for the UCI to pretend that a cut back of testing during out of season does not impede the passport is bordering on delusional.”
Source

Ashenden told Cyclingnews that he had "noticed a significant gap between tests in some of the profiles" that he had reviewed. "It's definitely not in every single profile, but enough to have left an impression on me," he told Cyclingnews.

"What I can’t answer is why those gaps are present," Ashenden continued. "Perhaps the UCI are pursuing a targeting strategy that I'm not aware of, but leaving big gaps doesn’t make any sense to me."
Source

If the UCI failed to examine Armstrong’s raw data when he placed third at the 2009 Tour de France, the UCI were derelict in their obligations to faithfully run the passport on behalf of the riders, teams and race organizers who contribute 85 percent of the costs of running the passport program. Those stakeholders deserve to know that their program is being run by competent and diligent managers,” Ashenden wrote. “If, on the other hand, the UCI did examine Armstrong’s raw data but failed to recognize that flat line blood values in tandem with suppressed bone marrow activity in the third place getter of a major tour was consistent with the possible use of blood transfusion, they have proven themselves to be biologically illiterate
Source

edit-
To be fair, Ashenden has said some positive things about the passport. It's not that it is useless. But it's also hardly the silver bullet the UCI likes us to think it is. The system could be improved.

A nice Ashenden piece on how the biopassport system works is here
“She lost the old-fashioned way, by being a terrible candidate. Case closed.”
Beech Mtn
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19 Aug 2013 19:43

Dr. Maserati wrote:No, let's not pretend.
I believe HV hid positives & McQ backs him in that and other corrupt actions.
But the ability to "hide positives" since WADA in 04 is almost impossible.

But more to the point YOU mentioned Sky, why only them?


I am not interested in what you think, you said Ashenden "dismissed the bio passport as not working".
I am asking where he said that.

you should at least hold your own posts up to the same standards, doc.
Ive lost count of the times u wrongly put words into peoples mouths.

as for ashenden, he,s gone on the record explaining how the passport failed to flag armstrong. do ur homework. Obviiusly "the passport" here (and in benottis post) stands for the whole system responsibl for the passport.. Pars pro toto or somethihg. Look it up.:rolleyes:
sniper
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19 Aug 2013 19:43

Dr. Maserati wrote:No, let's not pretend.
I believe HV hid positives & McQ backs him in that and other corrupt actions.
But the ability to "hide positives" since WADA in 04 is almost impossible.

But more to the point YOU mentioned Sky, why only them?


Why not?

As for hiding positives. Did you forget Contador's?

Dr. Maserati wrote:I am not interested in what you think, you said Ashenden "dismissed the bio passport as not working".
I am asking where he said that.


Michael Ashenden explains this:

“It won’t catch every single rider who had doped. A large part of this is due to the margins of tolerance we must allow to ensure that riders are not wrongly accused of doping – which means that there are riders who we suspect are doping after we’ve reviewed their profile, but these riders are not sanctioned via the Passport because we must allow a large margin of tolerance. They are however closely targeted, which increases the likelihood that they will be caught in the future.”

To the 1st bold bit, that to me means not working.

2nd bold bit. Well the dopers will generally get caught by retroactive testing, if samples are kept.

But McQuaid controls anti doping so how can it work.
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19 Aug 2013 19:53

Beech Mtn wrote:Because I think the holes in the biopassport system are a massively important issue for clean cycling, I'll post a couple articles here.

Source

Source

Source

Source

edit-
To be fair, Ashenden has said some positive things about the passport. It's not that it is useless. But it's also hardly the silver bullet the UCI likes us to think it is. The system could be improved.

A nice Ashenden piece on how the biopassport system works is here


Which was Benottis point when Benotti said Ashenden "dismissed the bio passport as not working".

The Passport works well and your post shows that Ashenden wants more and better testing with it. Don't confuse the role of the UCI/McQ/HV with how the passport works.
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19 Aug 2013 20:10

sniper wrote:you should at least hold your own posts up to the same standards, doc.
Ive lost count of the times u wrongly put words into peoples mouths.

I didn't -but whatever count you came up with is less than the number of times you failed to explain what you meant Kittel having 'Anglos-saxon bias' - you can take it up on the appropriate thread if you wish to finally clarify it.

sniper wrote:as for ashenden, he,s gone on the record explaining how the passport failed to flag armstrong. do ur homework. Obviiusly "the passport" here (and in benottis post) stands for the whole system responsibl for the passport.. Pars pro toto or somethihg. Look it up.:rolleyes:

This would be the same Passport that USADA said shows there was a million to one chance that LA did not dope?

The Passport works fine, Ashenden has no problem with it and never dismissed it as not working - it is because it works that they were not given the full set of data. Keep up.
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19 Aug 2013 20:11

As long as we're talking about the problems within the biopassport system, as administered by the UCI, here's this (old) article:

David Howman, WADA's director general, said that in the last three weeks, the organization has taken steps to allow its staff to begin monitoring the blood and urine profiles of the sport's elite riders that are collected through the sport's Biological Passport program—and to push for sanctions when necessary.

"Our job is to make sure the system isn't being sidestepped," Mr. Howman said. "We have the right of intervening if we think cases aren't being prosecuted appropriately."

The move reflects a growing concern in the antidoping community that the International Cycling Union, or UCI, the governing body of the sport which is charged with administering the Passport program, has not been following procedures correctly and is not doing a satisfactory job of cracking down on cheating.


If drug testers see anything that suggests a rider's blood has been manipulated, the rider's data, which is identified by a code to ensure anonymity, is sent to members of the independent panel, whose members include some of the top names in the antidoping community.

If the panelists agree the sample shows signs of doping, the data is sent back to the UCI, which is supposed to inform the cyclist, who is given a chance to explain the irregularities. If the panel still unanimously agrees that there is no other possible explanation for the results, the UCI can begin the sanctioning process. The ultimate decision on what to do with the results rests with the UCI. The panel has no control over, or knowledge of, what the UCI does with its recommendations.


Source
“She lost the old-fashioned way, by being a terrible candidate. Case closed.”
Beech Mtn
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19 Aug 2013 20:21

Benotti69 wrote:Why not?

As for hiding positives. Did you forget Contador's?

Contador? He is not on Sky.

Nor technically did they hide his positive - WADA had been informed, but what was attempted was to give AC and his legal team to quash the clenbuterol positive before it went public.
Benotti69 wrote:Michael Ashenden explains this:

“It won’t catch every single rider who had doped. A large part of this is due to the margins of tolerance we must allow to ensure that riders are not wrongly accused of doping – which means that there are riders who we suspect are doping after we’ve reviewed their profile, but these riders are not sanctioned via the Passport because we must allow a large margin of tolerance. They are however closely targeted, which increases the likelihood that they will be caught in the future.”

[color="Blue"]To the 1st bold bit, that to me means not working.[/color]

2nd bold bit. Well the dopers will generally get caught by retroactive testing, if samples are kept.

But McQuaid controls anti doping so how can it work.

Again I am not interested in your interpretation - so, nowhere has Ashenden "dismissed the Biopassport as not working". Thanks
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19 Aug 2013 20:35

sniper wrote:Obviiusly "the passport" here (and in benottis post) stands for the whole system responsibl for the passport..


Dr. Maserati wrote:. Keep up.

Beech mtn has no trouble understanding it
Beech Mtn wrote:As long as we're talking about the problems within the biopassport system, as administered by the UCI,

Thanks for (re)posting these bits n pieces by the way, +1.
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19 Aug 2013 20:54

sniper wrote:Beech mtn has no trouble understanding it

Thanks for (re)posting these bits n pieces by the way, +1.

So, now you are telling the forum exactly what Benotti means?
Were you not having a moan about people putting words in their mouths upthread?



Indeed Beech Mtn has no problem understanding the distinction between the UCI and the Passport - 2 different things (and not remotely to do with Bennottis claim re Ashenden)

Beetch Mtn:
To be fair, Ashenden has said some positive things about the passport. It's not that it is useless.
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19 Aug 2013 21:12

Dr. Maserati wrote:Contador? He is not on Sky.


so.


Dr. Maserati wrote:Again I am not interested in your interpretation - so, nowhere has Ashenden "dismissed the Biopassport as not working". Thanks


Then FO.
"ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78.

Jean Dubuffet: "For me, insanity is super sanity. The normal psychotic. Normal means lack of imagination, lack of creativity."
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19 Aug 2013 21:13

Dr. Maserati wrote:So, now you are telling the forum exactly what Benotti means?

more like showing the forum your incapacity to recognize a pars pro toto.

it's a bit odd (watch out: euphemism) that you're on benotti's back for the fact that he can't show a fragment where ashenden literally says "the passport is not working".
got shocking news for you:
benotti wasn't citing him. he was paraphrasing him.

so in your ideal forum we don't paraphrase and don't use some of the world's most common figures of speech. cool.
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19 Aug 2013 21:15

OK, I think that horse has been beaten to death. Please move on. Thanks.
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19 Aug 2013 21:17

Dr. Maserati wrote:Which was Benottis point when Benotti said Ashenden "dismissed the bio passport as not working".

The Passport works well and your post shows that Ashenden wants more and better testing with it. Don't confuse the role of the UCI/McQ/HV with how the passport works.


Bollix it does. Watch last years Vuelta, TdF's '12 and '13 and no one popped for what were obvious doped performances.

The passport might work, IF, tests were done regularly and it was done by an independent body. Until then, bollix.
"ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78.

Jean Dubuffet: "For me, insanity is super sanity. The normal psychotic. Normal means lack of imagination, lack of creativity."
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19 Aug 2013 21:18

red_flanders wrote:OK, I think that horse has been beaten to death. Please move on. Thanks.


Noted.

10chara
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19 Aug 2013 21:22

Benotti69 wrote:Noted.

10chara


Thx, no worries.
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19 Aug 2013 21:43

red_flanders wrote:OK, I think that horse has been beaten to death. Please move on. Thanks.

Why?
If there is a rule (or even in forum spirit) I will do so happily.
But the posts I am responding to are fair and within rules.

sniper wrote:more like showing the forum your incapacity to recognize a pars pro toto.

it's a bit odd (watch out: euphemism) that you're on benotti's back for the fact that he can't show a fragment where ashenden literally says "the passport is not working".
got shocking news for you:
benotti wasn't citing him. he was paraphrasing him.

so in your ideal forum we don't paraphrase and don't use some of the world's most common figures of speech. cool.

People can use any figures of speech they wish - but they cannot then attribute that to someone else.
Benotti is entitled to think the BP is not working (broadly I would agree) but nowhere does Ashenden say that.

Benotti did not have to "paraphrase" him.
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19 Aug 2013 22:06

Benotti69 wrote:Bollix it does. Watch last years Vuelta, TdF's '12 and '13 and no one popped for what were obvious doped performances.

The passport might work, IF, tests were done regularly and it was done by an independent body. Until then, bollix.


That means it works - which is not what you attributed to Ashenden.
The Passport works fine - but anything that the UCI has a hand in will not.
2 very different things.

As for Contador - you said "McQuaid dida deal with Sky".
Contador is not with Sky - I even asked before, what deal has McQ done with Sky? And why only Sky?
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19 Aug 2013 22:16

When Ashendon conducted his EPO micro dosing trial the guinea pigs were not flagged by the passport software. He concluded it needed to be upgraded.

He also observed the biopassport failed if the results were withheld from the expert panel (Armstrong) by the administering body.

Paraphrasing is perfectly legitimate.

On this note it's prudent to observe a polite warning from a mod (red flanders) to move on from this topic. Being pedantic on THIS issue is will not end well

Cheers
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19 Aug 2013 22:36

sittingbison wrote:When Ashendon conducted his EPO micro dosing trial the guinea pigs were not flagged by the passport software. He concluded it needed to be upgraded.

He also observed the biopassport failed if the results were withheld from the expert panel (Armstrong) by the administering body.

Paraphrasing is perfectly legitimate.

Thats your view that Benotti was paraphrasing.

If they were, why not just admit so when I asked where Ashenden had said this? Instead Benott has attempted to show that Ashenden said it.

sittingbison wrote:On this note it's prudent to observe a polite warning from a mod (red flanders) to move on from this topic. Being pedantic on THIS issue is will not end well

Cheers
Bison

I observed it, and even queried it.

I don't want to break any rule - point out what I have to avoid to adhere to the rules.

I believe Benottis post was on topic - therefore I see no reason not to respond to it. I trust that the mods are not now deciding what posts people can respond to.
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19 Aug 2013 22:57

Dr. Maserati wrote:Why?
If there is a rule (or even in forum spirit) I will do so happily.
But the posts I am responding to are fair and within rules.


Not up to you. You're derailing another thread. Stop or you'll be on vacation since we've had this conversation already this week. Thanks.
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